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Author Topic: Joan of Arc  (Read 7532 times)

cooldude234

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2013, 04:54:46 pm »

I think I don't like the head because the cheeks and chin are really thin and 'pointy'.

they're actually quite red and wet.
I can think of a dozen or so really inappropriate jokes on the on the top of my head to go with that XD
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Blick Fang

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2013, 03:08:53 pm »

HI kYLEsAN.   Looks Great!
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$imon

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2013, 11:44:48 am »

Hey KyleSan, good update, there! the edge looping itself looks good now. I think that the shape is still a bit awkward because of her cheeks/chin. You might want to go back and fleshen out the cheekbones a bit (see this image http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/images/head/image121.jpeg )

She just looks like she didnt have enough to eat for a while ;)

For the facial hair I wouldn't recommend using a bumpmap. It is not sufficient to give enough detail for an acceptable eyebrow. Either just paint it on, or try to model it. (you can also use Raxx' PHUR plugin http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php?topic=4614.0 , but that's a more realistic approach)
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dwsel

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2013, 12:41:33 pm »

Hey KyleSan, good update, there! the edge looping itself looks good now. I think that the shape is still a bit awkward because of her cheeks/chin. You might want to go back and fleshen out the cheekbones a bit (see this image http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/images/head/image121.jpeg )

I agree with $imon on that. I think the cause of the wrong look of her face is not in the eyes but rather than that it's caused by using the front view and side view references very strictly. It's the mistake I do by myself. If you imagine that on top view there's a set of points that need to be connected and you connect them by going on plain arcs or straight lines the face will look a bit flat or lifeless when seen from 3/4 view. On the other way if you connect points with curvatures correct to the required location it will look more natural. Finding 3/4 view reference is very helpful but such references are more rare so eyeballing the curvatures is the way to go.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 12:44:51 pm by dwsel »
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KyleSan

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2013, 06:37:53 pm »

Hey guys. Thanks for the CC! Its such a great learning curve. I'm picking up what you guys are putting down, haha. Come to think of it, when the face shape 1st started becoming an issue I went looking at some pictures online and the pictures I chose to reference were obviously the very skinny, photoshopped, super model type woman and that's why I couldn't figure it out.

Rest assured that I am having another look at the head and that I intend to revise it. I must admit however that when making the subtle adjustments I've done so far, I've noticed many flaws in my mesh. I'm at odds with modeling the head from scratch again. Practice makes perfect!

I wouldn't be lying if I said my ultimate goal as an anim8or would eventually be able to make flawless, anatomically accurate models as observed in the Final Fantasy series or similar. To achieve this, practice is essential. The more realistic, the better. You must have a goal or else you'll just wander aimlessly.

I previously tried using the Phur plug in to make her eye lashes and hair. I didn't have much luck however. But I'm sure with more time, I'd get the feel of it and make it work.
 I must agree with the bump map however, it doesn't suffice.

I admit though that the learning with transparency maps was a load of fun and the results were very pleasing but once again they have their flaws. They are inexpensive in terms of both rendering and modeling time, however they lack depth, realism and the ability to cast shadows correctly. I realize that they are not ideal for this specific application but I will however revisit them when I do her hair. I've seem some great results using transmaps for hair.
 
Thanks for the input once again and expect an update!
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cooldude234

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2013, 04:58:32 am »

I have a few things to reply to that, four actually.
One, when I search reference images for the human anatomy I usually search Images on google for HUMAN PROPORTIONS :P (it usually comes up with better results, I also narrow it down to human head, or human hands if needed more specific).
Two, Final fantasy characters are in no way realistic (proportionate and all other ways :P).
Three, transparency maps actually take longer to render (in anim8or) than actual geometry in my experience.
Four, you should probably do eye lashes manually since they dont have many lashes to them and they are pretty uniformed in their positions (eye lashes are in a line!).
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KyleSan

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2013, 05:48:58 am »

Thanks for the input cooldude234! I get what you mean when you say that final fantasy isn't realistic but in terms of proportions I might not have exaggerated enough. When compared to the majority of the CG films out there, the characters are generally styled as cartoonish and disproportionate to accentuate certain attributes of the characters. Where as the CG Resident Evil and Final Fantasy movies - however Anime-ish, seem to rely on generally accurate human proportions. That's just my experience though. Also I appreciate your input, thanks again.

I've compiled a couple of pics and I'd appreciate it if you guys could offer some CC. 1st was the proposed method of fixing the picture once I'd found decent reference pictures as cooldude234 suggested. Also then I attached the before and after pictures once I had made some changes (both wireframe and solid).

Only problem is that I've had to move my office and am no longer on a decent internet connection so I've been making due with my phone. Having some trouble attaching photos though but I'll figure something out.

Thanks once again for the CC , I do appreciate it.

EDIT: success! Pictures attached
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 06:02:38 am by KyleSan »
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cooldude234

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2013, 06:03:07 am »

Wow you have an office :P
That's better than me ;)

Still don't don't agree with you on the final fantasy bit though (resident evil is better but still not very proportionate, and just because other things are not proportionate doesn't make them any more correct to the human anatomy).

Cant wait for the pics though.
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davdud101

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2013, 07:04:39 am »

This is getting better!
I was analyzing some Kingdom Hearts character models and textures last month, and noticed that they used a two flat planes encircling the eyelids at slightly different angles with transmaps applied to them to generate the eyelashes- they look GOOD. I've never tried that method, and you may very well be looking for a more realistic approach, but its good to consider, for sure.
I genuinely couldn't try to be of any more help, I just know way too little myself.
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KyleSan

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2013, 11:06:00 am »

Cooldude234: I shouldn't actually call it an office. Its more of a pit stop for my pitiful lunchtimes lol.

Davdud101: Thanks for the insight. My next step after re-texturing will be trying to redo the eyelashes. Thanks for your input, I'll most definitely have a look at it.

Alright so I did as suggested and had a look at 3/4 views and different references and had another go at making the head look better. I found so many problems with it but the learning curve continues. I've attached pictures of the progress so far. I'm having trouble with the eyes again. I believe the eyes to be in proportion with the face now but the area underneath the eyes just doesn't seem right... I can't figure it out. Or is it just me? I would highly appreciate any input you guys would be willing to offer. The problem is seriously visible when you do a quick render so I've attached that also.
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dwsel

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2013, 01:08:58 pm »

Alright so I did as suggested and had a look at 3/4 views and different references and had another go at making the head look better. I found so many problems with it but the learning curve continues. I've attached pictures of the progress so far. I'm having trouble with the eyes again. I believe the eyes to be in proportion with the face now but the area underneath the eyes just doesn't seem right... I can't figure it out. Or is it just me? I would highly appreciate any input you guys would be willing to offer. The problem is seriously visible when you do a quick render so I've attached that also.

It's starting to look nice. I'd really love to see view after the updates.

About the eyes area... I'd try to put it in the scene and try different lighting or you can make a temporary material that will showcase any unwanted bumps (see attachment) Then rotate the view several times and render from different points of view. The default checkered pattern or even better if you paint simple horizontal stripes pattern will showcase places where the surface continuity breaks - similar to that:
=54s
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$imon

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2013, 07:42:34 pm »

Thats good advice, dwsel .. it is important to see where there are creases or bumps, they can unnoticeably get in the way of the overall look.

I have a few more suggestions based on the side-view of the model you've posted.

First off is the shape of the head from the side. I don't know what reference you're using, and I am by no means any expert on anatomy, but I think it might need some more volume in the back of the skull, the head seems a bit too thin (see red line for a suggestion - by no means is it the correct curve for the skull)

Another thing is that you're still in the phase of blocking out the general proportions and shape, I don't think it's necessary for you to start over, the wireframe is pretty decent. But I would simplify it a bit so it is easier to change the shape (by dragging just a few polies instead of having to adjust a whole bunch). I've highlighted a few edge loops that you could get rid of without having to lose much information. You can just move the loops around it a bit to fill in the space.

You also might want to fix the area under the head (green line) to get rid of any n-gons or triangles; just continue the green line to the back of the head.

You're doing good with picking up advice - it's the best way to learn. As far as your goals go; the FF models are totally awesome and if you can get to that level you can model any kind of realism you want.

All this talk of head modeling makes me want to improve my skills with it haha - but I've got too many other things on my plate right now ;)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 07:47:09 pm by $imon »
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KyleSan

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 05:39:17 pm »

Greetings forum,

Please excuse my prolonged absence. I work on a petrochemical plant that has a "shutdown" once a year, which this year resulted in me working 14 hours nighshifts haha, so needless to say that I didn't get a lot of anim8ing done. But with the shutdown behind us I had another look and spent a couple days on Joans head. I'm pleased with the results but please offer your CC and insight. I haven't as yet removed the edge loops as $imon suggested, I still have experimenting to do with that.    I'm very excited to begin the texturing of the head.

Thanks a lot guys
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Blick Fang

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 04:01:14 pm »

Kylesan, this is absolutely gorgeous!   8)   :D
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KyleSan

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Re: Joan of Arc
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2013, 06:32:50 pm »

Been playing with some texturing for the head, specifically around the eye area (it seems the most tricky). I've attached a picture of the area under scrutiny. I realize its a bit dark but you should get the idea.

Please offer CC and advice on how to improve it.


Thanks a million.
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