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Poll

Shoud Layer enables/visibilities be per Object/Figure/etc. or Project global?

Separate enables and visibilities per Object/Figure/etc.
- 10 (90.9%)
One global set of enables and visibilities per Project
- 1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 11


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Author Topic: Layers  (Read 15891 times)

Steve

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Re: Layers
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2014, 10:01:38 pm »

Separate Enables: Here's my idea of how the different Layers in the Object and Scene editor will interact (the first choice in the poll):

In the Object editor: An Object has no single Layer number. Individual components of an Object, however, each have their own Layer. The properties of these Layers are set within the Object editor (Visible, Locked, etc.).

In the Scene editor: Each time you add an Object to a Scene, Anim8or creates a new Element to add to the Scene that references that Object. That Element has (will have :)) it's own Layer which uses the Scene's Layer properties.

For example: Create and Object named Bird with components named Wings (Layer = 1), Legs (Layer = 2), and Body (Layer 3), and then add two Birds to a Scene named Scene1 giving the two corresponding Elements the names Robin (Layer = 1) and Tweety (Layer = 2).

1: If you hide Bird.Layer 1 (i.e. Bird.Layer[1].Visible = false) then the wings of both Robin and Tweety will vanish from the Scene because:

Scene1.Robin.Wings.Layer.Visible = Bird.Layer[1].Visible = false.
Scene1.Tweety.Wings.Layer.Visible = Bird.Layer[1].Visible = false.

2. If you then hide Scene1.Layer 1 (Scene1.Layer[1] = false) the Robin will vanish completely but Tweety will still be there, with his wings still not visible Because:

Scene1.Robin.Layer.Visible = Scene1.Layer[1].Visible = false.
Scene1.Tweety.Layer.Visible = Scene1.Layer[2].Visible = true, but
Scene1.Tweety.Wings.Layer.Visible = Bird.Layer[1].Visible = false.

If you re-enable Layer1's visibility in the Object Bird then Tweety's wings will reappear in Scene1 but Robin will still be hidden.

Global Layers: Here's my idea of how one global set of Layers will interact (the second choice in the poll):

Same setup. Layer1.Visible = false:

In the Object editor: the wings of Bird will vanish.
In Scene1: Robin will vanish and the Tweety's wings will vanish.

If you re-enable Layer1's visibility Robin will reappear as will Tweety's wings.

Hope this clarifies things a bit!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 10:03:11 pm by Steve »
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MvGulik

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Re: Layers
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2014, 05:45:35 am »

It did for me. Thanks.

(letting it sink in properly ...)
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thecolclough

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Re: Layers
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2014, 05:04:29 pm »

Does the Object layer apply to the components of each Object and the Scene layer applies to the Element?
yes.  if components within an object are assigned to a hidden layer, that setting should be 'baked' into the element as far as Figure or Scene mode is concerned, and the components shouldn't be made visible again by any layer settings you change within a figure or scene.  Although having said that... what if, in Scene mode, an object or figure element's internal layer visibilities could be keyframed?  *tries to stroke beard thoughtfully, but then remembers he doesn't currently have a beard*

Would this system work only upward in the [Obj, Fig, Seq, Sce] path, and not backwards ?
(so hiding/locking something in Object mode effects that element in the other/upper modes, but hiding/locking something in the other modes [Fig, Seq, Sce] would not effect the related elements in the Object(lower modes) editor.)
i would assume so, since pretty much everything else behaves that way - right, steve?  obviously, locking something within an object would have no effect in Figure or Scene mode, as the operations layer locking restricts can only be done in the local mode anyway.
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Trevor

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Re: Layers
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2014, 05:19:39 pm »

I completly agree with steve on Seperate Enables objects as described and exampled.
This makes perfect sence and is what I think we are all asking for.

layer1 invisible in object1 then any refrence to object1 will also hide object1.layer1
object2 would be entirly visible.
if you assigned an object to a layer then as the tree goes only 1 way, there would be no effect in object mode.

Unlike Global, where any refrance to Layer1 would be hidden... this is bad.

Trev
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MvGulik

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Re: Layers
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2014, 09:50:27 pm »

what if, in Scene mode, an object or figure element's internal layer visibilities could be keyframed?
If the default is "show (unless there is a active hidden somewhere)", the same should apply to a visibility key-frame (which could just be seen as a other/additional Hide setting, for that particular item/object.).

Would this system work only upward ...
i would assume so, ...
True. But that was before Steve last clarification. Where it was a lot less clearer to me. :)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 09:57:34 pm by MvGulik »
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Steve

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Re: Layers
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2014, 12:17:02 am »

For Separate Enables, all layers associated with something need to be visible for it to show up. When an Object Bird is in a Scene, the Element Robin that contains it has a layer and each component of that object, Wings, Legs and Body have a layer. For the entire Element Robin to be shown all 4 layers must be visible.

It does not work the other way. Changing a layer in a Scene will not alter any part of the visibility of an Object .
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thecolclough

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Re: Layers
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2014, 06:21:09 pm »

what if, in Scene mode, an object or figure element's internal layer visibilities could be keyframed?
If the default is "show (unless there is a active hidden somewhere)", the same should apply to a visibility key-frame (which could just be seen as a other/additional Hide setting, for that particular item/object.).

that's more or less what i was thinking - but i also think there would be a lot of useful applications for being able to override in the other direction too, i.e. using keyframes to make a normally-hidden layer become visible for part of a scene.  the three keyframe options, as i see it, would be: obey presets (default), force to hidden, or force to visible.

in terms of a practical application, consider this: you know the figure-duplication method people keep using when they want a character to hold a prop in their hand?  (as discussed here: http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php/topic,4938.0.html, for example.)  this kind of thing could be made a lot smoother using layer visibility keyframes, like so:

suppose you've got a character who spends most of your movie wearing a top hat.  for one scene only, he wears a crash helmet instead.  and there are a few props you want to put in his hands in various scenes.  so, you set up the figure with the main objects that comprise the character's body all on Layer 0, and his top hat on Layer 1, both set to visible.  his crash helmet is on Layer 2, and Layers 3 to 7 contain the various props in his hands, all set to hidden.  so, whenever you place the figure into a scene, he appears by default with his top hat, and no props (which is what you usually want).  for the scene where you want him to wear the crash helmet, you could use keyframes to hide Layer 1 with the top hat and show Layer 2 with the helmet; whenever he picks up one of his props, you again use keyframes to temporarily show the usually-hidden prop layer.  this method would allow you to have just one figure, instead of potentially quite a lot of variant figures cluttering up the project file which would be needed using the current method, and it would also eliminate the bother of trying to match up the position and movements of two separate variant figures within a scene to hide the transition.

hope that made sense... ?
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Steve

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Re: Layers
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2014, 09:01:50 pm »

Layers are intended as a modeling tool. You can already animate the visibility of elements of a scene using the Visible controller.
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MvGulik

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Re: Layers
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2014, 09:53:11 pm »

you know the figure-duplication method people keep using when they want a character to hold a prop in their hand?
Nope. But after reading up on it I get the general idea. (might work) :)

Unfortunately I feel way to rusty on Figures and Animation to dig into this at this time.
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thecolclough

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Re: Layers
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2014, 10:58:35 am »

Layers are intended as a modeling tool. You can already animate the visibility of elements of a scene using the Visible controller.
i get that; i was just wondering what the benefits might be if you could selectively animate the visibility of specific parts of a single element.  no biggie if it isn't going to happen :)
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Steve

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Re: Layers
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2014, 09:28:16 pm »

Trevor and Raxx: Check out the new default layer in build 1112.

Water Music: The layer number is preserved for converting to Mesh/Subdivided, duplication, editing, splitting, etc.

thecolclough: Bug fixed: #098-021 - Components assigned to hidden or locked Layers can be altered by editing commands.
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cooldude234

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Re: Layers
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2014, 03:18:48 am »

I really like the way layers have been streamlined on graphic editing software and I think you should head things in that direction a bit.
For example (refer to the attached image) in fireworks 8 you can add new layers and new layer folders by the dropdown menu on the layers tab (there is a couple other ways to do this but that mostly ties directly into the bitmap editing functions and is relevant here). The top most layers will appear on top of everything else and have priorty over everything below it. And I also like the folder feature as it can really help to organize your project especially when you have 50+ items that make up your image.
I think this could help in anim8or as you could group things into folders.
For example; lets say you have a model of a car with detailed interiors and parts like an engine. You could create a folder in the layers to keep all the engine stuff into, another one for the dash, one for the seats, and lastly one for the exterior. This way you don't have to cycle through a gazillion things to find just what you need, and you could also hide stuff based on these layers (hide a layer completely or just one object in that layer).

Using fireworks 8 again you can also lock a layer completely (which I think anim8or DRASTICALLY needs as it would help selection and editing of many vertices without accidentally editing something you don't want to), you can collapse a layer (for hiding of the layer's contents (NOT THE CONTENTS THEMSELVES!) for more organization) and you can even drag a layer with its contents to move it above or below another.

Also I figure this shouldn't be to hard to implement considering you already have grouping (which is still a completely separate thing to this, in fireworks you can have a group of a group in a layer but you can't group layers) and UI elements in place in the scene mode with the scene contents tree.

EDIT: I have to modify this again (second post in a row LOL) because I forgot to add the darn picture ::)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 03:19:56 am by cooldude234 »
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Steve

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Re: Layers
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2014, 12:44:36 am »

Layers are now supported for Figure components for visibility. Locked support will come next.

I am using the Separate model so when you hide something in, say, the Object editor it vanishes everywhere. While this is the most generally useful, it makes it difficult to make a test render of the final look in the Scene editor, for example, without going though all the different parts of your project and making sure that it's all visible.

So I've decided to add a GUI option to toggle between a Modified Global mode that I'll call Override, and the currently used Separate. This new mode will assume everything in the other editors is set to Visible. It will allow you to do a final render without leaving the Scene editor by just enabling all Scene layers and changing the Layer mode to Override or whatever better name comes up :) .
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 12:52:21 am by Steve »
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Trevor

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Re: Layers
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2014, 12:13:27 pm »

Thats actually a really great idea.
1 button override for render awsome.

Trev
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johnar

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Re: Layers
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2015, 02:12:01 am »

I really like the idea of this layer function, but just can't work it out?
 All i've been able to do with it is hide everything, by either clicking on the 0 layer in the top toolbar, or going to options -> layers and unticking/ticking layer 0.
 I can't work out how to add an object to a paticular layer, (or is it adding a layer to an object), and the layer numbers in the top toolbar are just permanently greyed out, except layer 0.
 going to 'options -> layers isn't really helping either.
  Could someone please enlighten me here.?
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