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Author Topic: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools  (Read 15245 times)

neirao

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 12:20:43 am »

"Fast Select/thick lines" very cool usefull!!
Thanks Steve!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 12:24:30 am by neirao »
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Steve

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 01:00:01 am »

Yes, I plan on removing the Rotate Faces and Scale Faces tools.
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cooldude234

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 03:56:40 am »

I am LOVING the ability to be able to select and move with the same tool, however I think it should have a new icon (one with cursor and move symbol combined).
Say Steve are you planning on adding a variable for the thickness of a line; you know one that the user can have control over. In other words have line thickness as a text box and you put a number in for its thickness (1 would default to 1 pixel width).
I will have to play around with it some more to be of anymore help :P but I'm too tired right now ;)
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Steve

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2014, 06:50:10 am »

cooldude234: I hadn't planned on a setting for the width, just the enable (width = 2) / disable (width = 1) like there is now. If people think it would be useful I can always add it :)
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kreator

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2014, 06:57:52 am »

Yes, I plan on removing the Rotate Faces and Scale Faces tools.
Steve If you remove these items how do you plan to implement, I am having trouble with visualising this at the moment.
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nemyax

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2014, 07:18:50 am »

I am having trouble with visualising this at the moment
For Rotate Faces, you just rotate them about their normals. In the current build's control scheme, you hold down Ctrl for a normal-based transform. For Scale Faces, you just scale them uniformly.
These particular transforms don't need special treatment when a consistent system is in place. And it should work equally well for transforming edges and faces using whatever axis you choose.
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Steve

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2014, 07:24:30 am »

Scale will work the same way, but better because it will scale relative to the selected points, not to the pivot. At least I hope it will be better!
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Raxx

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2014, 08:22:27 am »

Hey Steve, I really like the increased pick tolerance. Feels a lot more natural!

I guess I'll repost here some of my thoughts on the new system, if anyone would like to give input on it, they are more than welcome to.
  • It'd be nice for the option to use thick lines just for highlighting and maybe selection, so that it only helps it stand out more on a mesh while editing. Global thick lines otherwise kind of obscure the form and structure of the mesh, making it harder to work with when doing detailed modeling where such form and structure is necessary.
  • A lot of times, a point is visually clipped by the surrounding geometry (like in a concave convergence of faces). I think if a point is selected or highlighted, it should show the entire point unclipped, then go back to normal otherwise.
  • One bug I've noticed, if the mesh exceeds the boundary of the view, and you move the mouse from mesh to, say, the top toolbar, whatever face/edge/point was being highlighted before the cursor hits the toolbar, remains highlighted. In fact, sometimes moving the mouse back and forth from face to toolbar highlights other previously highlighted faces as well.
  • I think it'd be nice that, when Fast Select is toggled on, if the move, rotate, or scale/non-uniform scale tools are not already selected, then it'll automatically enable the move tool by default. Otherwise it'll use whichever of the four tools that is already selected.
  • I think the behavior of the right- and middle- click after dragging should abandon the add/subtract functionality. That is, if just single-clicking, then it does the selection functionality (single select for LMB, subtract for MMB, add for RMB). If dragging, it should have the same transformation functionality as the normal move/rotate/scale--but not affect the selection. So if I right-click-dragged, it wouldn't add onto the selection and transform it at the same time--it'd just transform the current selection. If click-dragging on an unselected element, it selects and transforms just that element. This is the easiest behavior to understand on the user-end, I think...
  • I'm feeling a bit conflicted about the Ctrl-click-dragging functionality of Fast Select. I think if Ctrl is held down, it should paint the selection the same as in select mode, regardless of if the move/rotate/scale tool is enabled, rather than transforming along the normal. Transforming along the normal is a nice tool to have on special occasion, but it's also only useful for point editing--it's hard to use with faces and edges. I think it'd be most useful to move this back to MMB with the move tool.
    In an attempt to recap what these mouse buttons do and possible suggestions:
    • Move:
      • LMB moves normally
      • CTRL+LMB moves along normal. Would be good to remove this.
      • RMB moves towards/away from camera (or, used to in regular point edit mode. This is still useful)
      • CTRL+RMB moves along normal. Would be good to remove this.
      • MMB nothing. Would be good to make it move along normal
      • CTRL+MMB moves along normal. Would be good to remove this.
    • Scale:
      • LMB scales normally-ish. Perhaps change this to midpoint scaling
      • RMB nothing yet. Perhaps scale with origin as pivot?
      • MMB nothing yet. Perhaps change this to pivot scaling?
    • Rotate:
      • LMB rotates normally-ish. Perhaps change this to midpoint rotating
      • RMB rotates on plane of camera (however you describe it--useful).
      • MMB nothing yet. Perhaps rotate around pivot?
  • The bit about the Ctrl modifier key and mouse buttons kind of brings up some issues. Most notably, the issue of consistency and just how the modifier keys should behave. This might need to be reserved for another conversation though...

[edit]As for highlight color, red feels a bit stark to me and kind of disrupts that in-the-zone modeling zen thing. I think a yellow-orange (R:255, G:132, B:0) might work well, among other things :)

« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 08:40:44 am by Raxx »
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neirao

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2014, 01:14:16 pm »

Raxx, amazing color interface! Simple and Beauty!
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kreator

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2014, 03:36:16 pm »

Yes that is a good GUI Raxx!
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Steve

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2014, 01:31:42 am »

Raxx: You have lots of good ideas, as usual. Here's some preliminary thoughts/comments.

Quote
Use thick lines just for highlighting and maybe selection.
I agree that this could be useful but it's more work that you might think. That's not to say I don't want to do it.

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Show entire point unclipped when selecting.
That was my intention - I'm still working on the best way to do it.
   
Quote
Moving the mouse off the main window leaves a point/edge/face highlighted.
I'm aware of this but haven't yet found a good way to address it yet either.

Quote
behavior of the right- and middle- mouse buttons
I'm still working on how these should behave. There are a lot of options. You can't distinguish between a click and a drag until the user either moves the mouse or releases the button. The way that I would do this is:

1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button.

Currently on 1) I remove the highlighting and effect the selection.

Quote
highlight color
Yes, As I stated in the top of this topic the overall colors are as yet decided. Your example looks really good but it shows a monochrome mesh which isn't the norm. (On a related note: One idea I have is for a setting that shows everything as a light gray. Seems that this would be useful for modeling because the shape is a bit more obvious.)
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Raxx

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2014, 06:19:39 am »

Quote
Quote
Use thick lines just for highlighting and maybe selection.
I agree that this could be useful but it's more work that you might think. That's not to say I don't want to do it.

I know it's more work, but I think it's worth it! So I'll wait and hope ;)

Quote
Quote
behavior of the right- and middle- mouse buttons
I'm still working on how these should behave. There are a lot of options. You can't distinguish between a click and a drag until the user either moves the mouse or releases the button. The way that I would do this is:

1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button.

Currently on 1) I remove the highlighting and effect the selection.
Yes, that's my thinking as well :) If you click (or click and drag) in empty space, it should deselect and do nothing.

Quote
Quote
highlight color
Yes, As I stated in the top of this topic the overall colors are as yet decided. Your example looks really good but it shows a monochrome mesh which isn't the norm. (On a related note: One idea I have is for a setting that shows everything as a light gray. Seems that this would be useful for modeling because the shape is a bit more obvious.)
Personally, for 99.9% of the modeling I do, I use a gray material. The orange otherwise has as much chance of standing out as any other color (well, you know, unless you consider that bright green catches the eye most of any color, but bright orange is closer to it than red). It would indeed be awesome to have a modeling view option, that gives it a slightly darker gray than the default material (flat, no spec), and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling.
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MvGulik

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2014, 01:37:41 pm »

I personally kinda question the general wisdom of those "deselect all on empty space click"  points of view.

Deselection a (small or potential big) active selection by accident is not something that you would like to happen to easily. Clicking in empty space with the mouse, while editing a selection with the mouse, seems a not to uncommon possible mishap.
(Deselecting all with SPACE, and only with SPACE. Has a lot less change of being used accidentally.)

Also, To me, using different mouse buttons for different selection actions seem a bit of a wast of mouse button use. When using the selection status of the clicked item to add or remove is to or from the current section ... would only require one mouse button, leaving the others mouse buttons for potential other functions. (+having a strong memorable difference between the usage of the different mouse buttons seems to me a good thing to.)

Just my 2 cent thoughts on this.
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Trevor

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2014, 02:44:53 pm »

I think I am in agreement with most of the suggestions.

"1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button."

I would also question the 2A in relation to current standard.

As it currently stands (unless something changed and I have yet to notice) I can select a P/E/F and then click anywhere else and drag and the selected P/E/F will move.

the rest 1, 2B I agree with, if click on a new P/E/F then others should be de-selected and new one selected (or added to if ctrl-click)

but 2A means that you would have to keep clicking the P/E/F
... actually scrub that.... I think Im ok with it, but I do in fact now have another problem caused by this.
(Unable to modify Selection of P/E/F's)

ok, So, lets say you have n P/E/F's selected and you want to move all of them.

Do you:
just click and drag
Ctrl-Click and drag?

I ask because it seems that to simply click and drag would un-select all other P/E/F's and only move the 1... this is bad.


"and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling."

Can I ask if you mean flat shading?
Set Ambiant to 1.2 and diffuse to 0.001 and click the combine button (=). is this the same effect?
(this flat shading is how I model for GF since the GE engine does not do lighting)
(Also of note, the reason for 0.001 is so that it keeps the texture assigned, if set to 0, the texture is removed)

Trev
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 03:01:09 pm by Trevor »
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Raxx

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Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2014, 04:38:57 pm »

I personally kinda question the general wisdom of those "deselect all on empty space click"  points of view.

Deselection a (small or potential big) active selection by accident is not something that you would like to happen to easily. Clicking in empty space with the mouse, while editing a selection with the mouse, seems a not to uncommon possible mishap.
(Deselecting all with SPACE, and only with SPACE. Has a lot less change of being used accidentally.)

Also, To me, using different mouse buttons for different selection actions seem a bit of a wast of mouse button use. When using the selection status of the clicked item to add or remove is to or from the current section ... would only require one mouse button, leaving the others mouse buttons for potential other functions. (+having a strong memorable difference between the usage of the different mouse buttons seems to me a good thing to.)

Just my 2 cent thoughts on this.

Remember, this is for fast select ie tweaking. It's primarily for rapid movement of individual elements along the screen space. 99% of the time, you won't have an active selection to work with, nor would you build up a careful selection using the tool--that's for the normal selection tools in non-fast select mode. Clicking in an empty space to deselect while in tweak mode is both natural and helpful--I've experienced this myself in another modeling program (XSI Mod Tool) and use it quite often.

Traditionally, shift and ctrl are used for adding and removing from the selection. Myself, I've always liked Anim8or's three-button selection method and it's easy to remember which does what. A lot of times in other programs, I mix up what shift and control do--that's not the case with Anim8or because it's unique.

As it currently stands (unless something changed and I have yet to notice) I can select a P/E/F and then click anywhere else and drag and the selected P/E/F will move.
...
but 2A means that you would have to keep clicking the P/E/F[/s] ... actually scrub that.... I think Im ok with it, but I do in fact now have another problem caused by this.
(Unable to modify Selection of P/E/F's)

Hello Trevor, again I'll remind you that this is Fast Select we're talking about, as I mentioned to MvGulik. Fast Select is a tweaking tool, primarily something you use to rapidly move stuff around piece by piece in an intuitive manner. It's not a replacement to normal mode, which is used for more careful, precise editing. To be exact, Fast Select is a combination of the selection tools and whatever transformation tool it is--you single click to modify the selection if you really have to, you click drag to transform it. Not sure what build you're using, but if you're in Fast Select mode and have a selection, and left-click and drag in an empty space, it deselects everything (because it's using the mouse button select functionality). If you right-click and drag in an empty space, it drags the current selection. It's weird. Don't get me started on middle-clicking and dragging lol.

This is also why I want MMB to use the transform-along-normal functionality instead of the Ctrl button. This way the Ctrl modifier key can be used for painting the selection when clicking and dragging across whatever it is you want to paint a selection, and therefore be consistent with the original selection tools while mitigating a faster editing process.

ok, So, lets say you have n P/E/F's selected and you want to move all of them.

Do you:
just click and drag
Ctrl-Click and drag?

I ask because it seems that to simply click and drag would un-select all other P/E/F's and only move the 1... this is bad.
I think you misinterpreted the actions Steve suggested. In Fast-Select, click dragging on a selection moves all selected elements. Click-dragging off a selection doesn't move the selected elements, and newly selects and moves an element if it's on it, or otherwise deselects. So to answer your question, you click on the selection and drag.

Quote
"and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling."

Can I ask if you mean flat shading?
Set Ambiant to 1.2 and diffuse to 0.001 and click the combine button (=). is this the same effect?
(this flat shading is how I model for GF since the GE engine does not do lighting)
(Also of note, the reason for 0.001 is so that it keeps the texture assigned, if set to 0, the texture is removed)

Trev

Nope, not flat shading. Flat shading is a horrible aid for modeling, you can't see contours at all. Look at the video I made of Headlight view and a good shading for modeling, which allows you to edit at any angle without having to fight the lighting:



Not really the best video :P The light source seems to be an infinite one, rotated slightly down at an angle relative to the camera. It's hard to tell with the video, but if you rotated to, say, the underside of the squirrel's chin or inside the mouth, it'd be illuminated from that angle still.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 04:49:35 pm by Raxx »
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