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Author Topic: Figure Editor: Simultaneously Add, Lengthen, Rotate Bones  (Read 20234 times)

neirao

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Figure Editor: Simultaneously Add, Lengthen, Rotate Bones
« on: March 24, 2015, 09:16:08 pm »

Now the fast bone work fine in 1166 version!! :)
hey Steve what you know about to make the fast bones in figure mode we can "add new bone and together rotate the bone?" is very usefull for us! thanks!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:07:25 pm by Steve »
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neirao

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 10:02:17 pm »

hi Steve,
can in new versions insert this functions in Figure Mode?
in Fast Mode "enabled multiple activated buttons" on creation of new bone:
++ 1 - allow in moment of "add new bone" [rotate] and [change the length] in same time!

+ 2 - in "existing bones" allow  [rotate] and [change the length] in same time!

is very usefull and time saved and "smooth" bones creations!! :)

in atual mode the buttons has "switch" activation in this my idea we can enable this 3 buttons togheters(is the same atual way one click "on", click again "off") but without the "switch" ...
i think that this is simple for implements in FAST MODE! :)

what you and the guys think about this? 8)

ps: Thanks for this new version!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:07:23 pm by neirao »
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johnar

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 12:07:56 am »

 Hi neirao
 
 If 3 functions are enabled, new bone, new length and rotate bone.
I suppose things are then dependant on mouse button, eg: Left mouse for new bone, middle mouse button for length, and right mouse for rotate.
 If that's the plan, then '+1'. 
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Raxx

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 01:23:19 am »

I think what neirao wants is something that's standard in just about all animation software now---click and drag bones. Anim8or has a lot of catching up to do in the rigging and animation department...


This video I recorded just now. The user should be able to make bones easily and naturally like this, and also the bones shouldn't be restricted to the end points of their parents, with the ability to move the bones (both when rigging and animating).

I forgot to include, you can click and drag around the endpoints of the bones as well, allowing you to scale and rotate the bones by moving the endpoints rather than the awkward method of rotating, then scaling, then rotating, then scaling, then rotating, then scaling, then rotating, then scaling, then rotating, then scaling, then rotating.

Oh, and let's not forget being able to set parent/child relationships for any bone regardless of if they're connected or not...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 01:28:03 am by Raxx »
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neirao

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 05:10:43 am »

YEESSS Raxx! is this!
Your video explains perfectly! ;D
would be an amazing form of using the Anim8or!

thanks for made this video(very professional)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 05:11:20 am by neirao »
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Steve

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 04:19:03 pm »

Raxx: IT looks like there are 3 modes in your video.
1) Add Bone - allows you to drag from the tip of one bone to set the length and angle of the new bone.
2) Rotate Bone - change the angle of a bone.
3) Move Bone - move the start of a child bone relative to it's parent. The bone hierarchy doesn't change, it just adds an offset to the starting position of the child bone.

For 1) I've been experimenting with allowing rotation when adding bones which as far as I can tell does what the video shows. It supports grid-snap (length and angle) constraints.

For 2) Anim8or currently requires 2 mouse actions to rote a bone - click to select, then click-drag the selected bone to rotate it. Eliminating the click-to-select requirement is a good idea - I'll make that change.

For 3) I'll experiment with this as well. How do you make it show the parent-child relations? I can't tell from the video.
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nemyax

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 09:26:35 pm »

It would be helpful to have two modes for skeletons:
  • An edit mode similar to objects' point edit mode. You'd move/rotate/scale bone endpoints like you do mesh points. One important difference would be the ability to set the roll.
  • A hierarchy mode where you transform bones like you do objects.
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Raxx

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 10:13:31 pm »

Hi Steve,

1) Not sure what your implementation is (if it works, it works). I figure the bone is just a vector, you just change this vector by moving the endpoint like you do anything else in the workspace. This way it follows exactly where the user wants it to go. Some extra code would probably have to be used to make its Y-axis orientation (or roll) similar to its parent.

Related to #3, the Add Bone tool will also need to be able to make free-floating bones. So clicking and dragging in space will make the offset bones, or clicking and dragging from the endpoint of an existing bone will set its origin at that bone's endpoint. Also, there's no longer any need for a "root" bone. Rather, you can keep this root bone internally and hidden (or just call it the origin) if it makes it easier.

I think the way to define added bones' parents would be, if a bone was selected at the time of the adding bone action, it automatically becomes the parent of the new bone. If no bone was selected, the new bone's parent would be the "root". If multiple bones were selected, I suppose the parent of the new bone would still be the root until the user sets it otherwise.

2) Great! This is actually what I thought you'd do for Fast Select with all the tools.

3) As for the parent/child relationships, I kind of clipped it at the end of the video, it shows it for a split second. That program simply has a line with an arrow that points from the child bone to the parent bone. But I think Blender's method is better, where it shows a dashed line running from the child bone's origin to the parent bone's endpoint.

Anime Studio Pro


Blender


A parenting tool would make things a lot easier (call it, say, Set Parent). When enabled you can click and drag from child bone to parent bone to set it. And of course, it can be changed in the bone properties dialog box (drop down menu would be easiest).

--

Re nemyax's post, it'd also be good to be able to set the bone's rotation, scale, and location without affecting its children, possibly by holding shift or control
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:23:19 pm by Raxx »
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Steve

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 10:27:44 pm »

Re 1: A bone is more complex than a vector, it's an orientation, i.e. a 3D coordinate system. This goes along with having an Up vector which a vector doesn't need. But it's all just math :)
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Raxx

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 10:31:56 pm »

Hm, but you can treat its endpoint like a point in space and have the orientation follow, right? Whatever it is, I'll leave it up to you haha.
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cooldude234

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 07:07:01 am »

Re 1: A bone is more complex than a vector, it's an orientation, i.e. a 3D coordinate system. This goes along with having an Up vector which a vector doesn't need. But it's all just math :)
Wouldn't a bone just be treated as a matrix? A transform and rotation one at that. So I don't see how it couldn't work the way raxx mentioned. Unless me being sleep deprived is getting to the best of me again :P
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Trevor

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Re: Re: Current Development Release - Build 1164, March 2, 2015
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 05:04:07 pm »

The bone gives the input values to a matrix along with the object vertexes, however the bone itself is just a 3D co-ord with a fancy model overlay pointing to the next 3D co-ord.

I guess you couyld be right though?

Trev
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Steve

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Re: Figure Editor: Simultaneously Add, Lengthen, Rotate Bones
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 11:08:47 pm »

I split this into a new topic.

There isn't really one "right" way to add a new bone. Do you make the UP vector point towards the viewer? Do you keep it in the same plain as the parent bone's UP vector? For most bones it doesn't really matter since they are part of a network of bones within one big object. All that matters is their relative rotation because that's what deforms the object.

As far as the implementation, don't worry. As I've said, it's all just math.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:57:54 pm by Steve »
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Raxx

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Re: Figure Editor: Simultaneously Add, Lengthen, Rotate Bones
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2015, 04:48:36 am »

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about the math side of it. I'm sure you've got it covered ;)

I've been talking about rigging for the most part, but the ability to also animate the movement and scale of bones will make Anim8or a lot more powerful as an animation tool. Combined with constraints and ASL integration, it'll have a lot going for it. It's a hefty job though!

Still waiting for the topo knife tool >.>
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cooldude234

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Re: Figure Editor: Simultaneously Add, Lengthen, Rotate Bones
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 01:41:04 pm »

What I mainly want is fast rigging and fast manipulation. It what anim8or truly lacks in the animation department.
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