Anim8or Community

Artwork => Finished Works and Works in Progress => Topic started by: KyleSan on August 05, 2013, 04:50:38 pm

Title: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 05, 2013, 04:50:38 pm
Hello Anim8or Community,

Im new to the forums and have lately been taking Anim8or very seriously. I did the usual beginner thing and tried tutorials and read the forums and all that. I've recently done the very popular "Joan of Arc" Tutorial and completed the modelling. The next stage of course is the texturing but before I continue I want to make sure that the model has been scrutinized by more experienced eyes. Please offer your CC and opinions. Also, please pay special attention to the edgeloops on the face. I intend to animate with this model once the texturing is done and I would appreciate any insight you have into edge loops. I'm here to learn.

The attached picture was scanline rendered.

Thanks in advance! Great team you guys have got going here.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: $imon on August 05, 2013, 07:26:58 pm
Hello KyleSan,

Good to see you're taking on a new level of modeling, the Joan of Arc tutorial is a classic, and still great for learning the basics of edge looping.

As far as the model goes that you've posted here, the shapes look nice; her body is a little disproportionate in places, but the tutorial doesn't really go for realism in that sense. You could round out the arms and legs a bit more, they appear a bit square in places.

I've also posted some suggestions for your edgelooping (see attachment)
As I'm sure the tutorial stressed, it is important to keep all polies squared, you don't want any triangles or pentagonal shapes. I marked these areas in red in the image, and proposed a fix on the right; this usually means either adding a loop, 'closing' two loops together, or in this case connecting loops from one triangle to another.
Make sure to check your whole model for triangles or other weird shaped polygons and try to get rid of them smartly (usually it is good to delete a loop rather than adding one; use the least amount of points as necessary to create the shape you need.)

Also make sure that all the loops around an animatable area are full loops. This means that around the eyes every loop should go all the way around the eye and connect to itself. Have another look at the areas in the blue circles and the outside corners of the eyes.

Good attempt, and I hope you can keep learning; it's a fun stage in 3d modeling because it improves your models hugely.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: davdud101 on August 05, 2013, 09:40:54 pm
I FINALLY see what an actually edge 'loop' is!! Could someone explain it in more detail? Maybe message me?
Really nice model though, KyleSan! Hope to see some awesome stuff in the future!
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: CrashDrive on August 06, 2013, 03:45:00 am
Your overall model is looking really good. I'm sure you can appreciate the work that goes into 
that kind of modelling. Welcome to the Anim8or forums.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 12, 2013, 05:03:28 am
Ah, Im glad the forum is up and running again.
$imon I attached a picture of the face redone. Is it more of what you had in mind?

I also went ahead and textured the face. Any tips anyone would have to maybe improve the texture? Also, I used a bumpmap to try make her eyebrows not look so flat, but I'm not sure if I'm happy with the results though... any input would be appreciated.

Thanks Crashdrive and davdud101 for the kind words.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 12, 2013, 02:35:11 pm
I prefer the first face (the non textured one). It looks a lot less erm, creepy.
But I really love the first pic you posed, lots of fine clean details in the model and it makes it look very nice.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 13, 2013, 04:15:31 am
Hi, cooldude234. Thanks! I wish I could take credit but seeing as its a tutorial that would be inappropriate. But no worries, as soon as Ive squeezed all the learning I can out of this project I'll definately be posting something origional.

Creepy you say? Could it be because she doesn't have hair in this picture?
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 13, 2013, 04:50:12 am
So the first model isn't yours?

Also it looks creepy because the shape of the head and the proportion of the eyes (shape VS proportion of both really).

It is possible to exaggerate parts of the human anatomy without making it look bad or creepy. But you have to reconfigure other parts. It's easy to make eyes big and look good when the rest of the face is less detailed and extremely simplified. This is because your brain doesn't see any of the fine details that would be present on a normal looking face.
It's a little hard to explain and I'm probably too tired to try but its along those lines.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 13, 2013, 04:55:57 am
I get what youre trying to say. No the 1st model is mine, I just followed a tutorial in making it. Having a good look at it I see that her eyelids dont cover enough of the eye, could this maybe be the problem? - making the eyes look all bulgy. I'll work on it and get back to you.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 13, 2013, 06:29:49 am
Please excuse the double post.

I had a look at the eye situation and found a couple things out.

I didnít do my research for eye references efficiently enough so I remodelled the eye. Please have a look guys and let me know what you think. Practice makes perfect and I'm here to learn. The shape if the eye was way out and also the size of the iris. I tried to refit the eye to look proportionate to the face.

I attached a picture of the old eye vs the new eye.

Thanks guys! loving the new emoticons ;D :P
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 13, 2013, 06:53:22 am
Looks much much better. However still not keen on the shape of the head (in my opinion).
Keep at it though this looks like it's progressing well  ;D
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: johnar on August 13, 2013, 08:16:03 am
Hello KyleSan.
 Kudos for your effort so far, and welcome.  :)
  Joan of arc is a classic tutorial and yours is coming along really well.
 I  like the updated eye moreso than the first. but that 'tear duct' bit in the eye, looks a little large to me.
 maybe the second eye with the first tear duct (size) would be worth trying. What do you think...?
 Keep up the good work.   ;)
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 13, 2013, 10:19:31 am
cooldude234, thanks for the input. With all the CC it just keeps looking better and better. I see what you mean about the head. When using the reference pictures provided with the tutorial you kind of shift your mind to thinking that those shapes are okay, but after some reflection you come to see that it is a very unbelievable shape for a head. Im having another look at the shape and after some remodelling I'll give another update.

johnar, thanks for the welcoming. I did some googleing and realized that the previous shape of the tear duct would only be applicable if she had a tear duct infection lol. I revised it and reshaped it. Struggling to get it to look like the real thing but I attached an update of the progress so far.

I also changed the eye texture to something more realistic, a new iris and some subtle vein textures. Im a bit at odds with if the vein texture is enough... When playing around with the texture and adding more veins she looks more hungover than what I had origionally anticipated haha.

Its great to have such experienced anim8ors helping me along. Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: johnar on August 13, 2013, 12:13:31 pm
nice one on the tear ducts KyleSan, they look about perfect, but, (I'm 'nearly being picky here),
 the colour sems a litle bit too pink. (imho)
 I just had a close look at my own in the mirror, they're actually quite red and wet. lol. No, not hungover at all.
 Maybe just a bit more 'specular' value in the material editor, and a bit more redish.?

 I did the joan of arc tut a few years ago now, and mine never looked nearly as good as this one. Actually, didn't even completely finish it. I know that modelling is not my strong point, (especially organic), and will one day need to sit down and learn more. Will probly hav another crack at joan.  If i can get my next attempt to look anywhere near this good i will be quite the happy chappy.  :)
  Your 'studiousness' is obvious,  ;),  so well done sir and awesome job so far.
 
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 13, 2013, 01:22:09 pm
Thanks for the input johnar. I appreciate the vote of confidence. I've running through your youtube channel and found your video of Paul McCartney excellent. The lip-syncing is flawless. I'll be needing your, and the other members, opinions sometime in the future, because once I'm satisfied with the results of the face, I'll be animating her. I've recoloured her tear ducts and added a bit more of a spec value.

I've tried modifying the shape of the face somehow to make her look better, but with every try she just ends up looking like a man haha. I'll keep at it and maybe get some results soon.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 13, 2013, 04:54:46 pm
I think I don't like the head because the cheeks and chin are really thin and 'pointy'.

they're actually quite red and wet.
I can think of a dozen or so really inappropriate jokes on the on the top of my head to go with that XD
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: Blick Fang on August 15, 2013, 03:08:53 pm
HI kYLEsAN.   Looks Great!
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: $imon on August 16, 2013, 11:44:48 am
Hey KyleSan, good update, there! the edge looping itself looks good now. I think that the shape is still a bit awkward because of her cheeks/chin. You might want to go back and fleshen out the cheekbones a bit (see this image http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/images/head/image121.jpeg )

She just looks like she didnt have enough to eat for a while ;)

For the facial hair I wouldn't recommend using a bumpmap. It is not sufficient to give enough detail for an acceptable eyebrow. Either just paint it on, or try to model it. (you can also use Raxx' PHUR plugin http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php?topic=4614.0 , but that's a more realistic approach)
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: dwsel on August 16, 2013, 12:41:33 pm
Hey KyleSan, good update, there! the edge looping itself looks good now. I think that the shape is still a bit awkward because of her cheeks/chin. You might want to go back and fleshen out the cheekbones a bit (see this image http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/images/head/image121.jpeg )

I agree with $imon on that. I think the cause of the wrong look of her face is not in the eyes but rather than that it's caused by using the front view and side view references very strictly. It's the mistake I do by myself. If you imagine that on top view there's a set of points that need to be connected and you connect them by going on plain arcs or straight lines the face will look a bit flat or lifeless when seen from 3/4 view. On the other way if you connect points with curvatures correct to the required location it will look more natural. Finding 3/4 view reference is very helpful but such references are more rare so eyeballing the curvatures is the way to go.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 16, 2013, 06:37:53 pm
Hey guys. Thanks for the CC! Its such a great learning curve. I'm picking up what you guys are putting down, haha. Come to think of it, when the face shape 1st started becoming an issue I went looking at some pictures online and the pictures I chose to reference were obviously the very skinny, photoshopped, super model type woman and that's why I couldn't figure it out.

Rest assured that I am having another look at the head and that I intend to revise it. I must admit however that when making the subtle adjustments I've done so far, I've noticed many flaws in my mesh. I'm at odds with modeling the head from scratch again. Practice makes perfect!

I wouldn't be lying if I said my ultimate goal as an anim8or would eventually be able to make flawless, anatomically accurate models as observed in the Final Fantasy series or similar. To achieve this, practice is essential. The more realistic, the better. You must have a goal or else you'll just wander aimlessly.

I previously tried using the Phur plug in to make her eye lashes and hair. I didn't have much luck however. But I'm sure with more time, I'd get the feel of it and make it work.
 I must agree with the bump map however, it doesn't suffice.

I admit though that the learning with transparency maps was a load of fun and the results were very pleasing but once again they have their flaws. They are inexpensive in terms of both rendering and modeling time, however they lack depth, realism and the ability to cast shadows correctly. I realize that they are not ideal for this specific application but I will however revisit them when I do her hair. I've seem some great results using transmaps for hair.
 
Thanks for the input once again and expect an update!
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 17, 2013, 04:58:32 am
I have a few things to reply to that, four actually.
One, when I search reference images for the human anatomy I usually search Images on google for HUMAN PROPORTIONS :P (it usually comes up with better results, I also narrow it down to human head, or human hands if needed more specific).
Two, Final fantasy characters are in no way realistic (proportionate and all other ways :P).
Three, transparency maps actually take longer to render (in anim8or) than actual geometry in my experience.
Four, you should probably do eye lashes manually since they dont have many lashes to them and they are pretty uniformed in their positions (eye lashes are in a line!).
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 17, 2013, 05:48:58 am
Thanks for the input cooldude234! I get what you mean when you say that final fantasy isn't realistic but in terms of proportions I might not have exaggerated enough. When compared to the majority of the CG films out there, the characters are generally styled as cartoonish and disproportionate to accentuate certain attributes of the characters. Where as the CG Resident Evil and Final Fantasy movies - however Anime-ish, seem to rely on generally accurate human proportions. That's just my experience though. Also I appreciate your input, thanks again.

I've compiled a couple of pics and I'd appreciate it if you guys could offer some CC. 1st was the proposed method of fixing the picture once I'd found decent reference pictures as cooldude234 suggested. Also then I attached the before and after pictures once I had made some changes (both wireframe and solid).

Only problem is that I've had to move my office and am no longer on a decent internet connection so I've been making due with my phone. Having some trouble attaching photos though but I'll figure something out.

Thanks once again for the CC , I do appreciate it.

EDIT: success! Pictures attached
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: cooldude234 on August 17, 2013, 06:03:07 am
Wow you have an office :P
That's better than me ;)

Still don't don't agree with you on the final fantasy bit though (resident evil is better but still not very proportionate, and just because other things are not proportionate doesn't make them any more correct to the human anatomy).

Cant wait for the pics though.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: davdud101 on August 17, 2013, 07:04:39 am
This is getting better!
I was analyzing some Kingdom Hearts character models and textures last month, and noticed that they used a two flat planes encircling the eyelids at slightly different angles with transmaps applied to them to generate the eyelashes- they look GOOD. I've never tried that method, and you may very well be looking for a more realistic approach, but its good to consider, for sure.
I genuinely couldn't try to be of any more help, I just know way too little myself.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on August 17, 2013, 11:06:00 am
Cooldude234: I shouldn't actually call it an office. Its more of a pit stop for my pitiful lunchtimes lol.

Davdud101: Thanks for the insight. My next step after re-texturing will be trying to redo the eyelashes. Thanks for your input, I'll most definitely have a look at it.

Alright so I did as suggested and had a look at 3/4 views and different references and had another go at making the head look better. I found so many problems with it but the learning curve continues. I've attached pictures of the progress so far. I'm having trouble with the eyes again. I believe the eyes to be in proportion with the face now but the area underneath the eyes just doesn't seem right... I can't figure it out. Or is it just me? I would highly appreciate any input you guys would be willing to offer. The problem is seriously visible when you do a quick render so I've attached that also.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: dwsel on August 17, 2013, 01:08:58 pm
Alright so I did as suggested and had a look at 3/4 views and different references and had another go at making the head look better. I found so many problems with it but the learning curve continues. I've attached pictures of the progress so far. I'm having trouble with the eyes again. I believe the eyes to be in proportion with the face now but the area underneath the eyes just doesn't seem right... I can't figure it out. Or is it just me? I would highly appreciate any input you guys would be willing to offer. The problem is seriously visible when you do a quick render so I've attached that also.

It's starting to look nice. I'd really love to see view after the updates.

About the eyes area... I'd try to put it in the scene and try different lighting or you can make a temporary material that will showcase any unwanted bumps (see attachment) Then rotate the view several times and render from different points of view. The default checkered pattern or even better if you paint simple horizontal stripes pattern will showcase places where the surface continuity breaks - similar to that:
=54s
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: $imon on August 17, 2013, 07:42:34 pm
Thats good advice, dwsel .. it is important to see where there are creases or bumps, they can unnoticeably get in the way of the overall look.

I have a few more suggestions based on the side-view of the model you've posted.

First off is the shape of the head from the side. I don't know what reference you're using, and I am by no means any expert on anatomy, but I think it might need some more volume in the back of the skull, the head seems a bit too thin (see red line for a suggestion - by no means is it the correct curve for the skull)

Another thing is that you're still in the phase of blocking out the general proportions and shape, I don't think it's necessary for you to start over, the wireframe is pretty decent. But I would simplify it a bit so it is easier to change the shape (by dragging just a few polies instead of having to adjust a whole bunch). I've highlighted a few edge loops that you could get rid of without having to lose much information. You can just move the loops around it a bit to fill in the space.

You also might want to fix the area under the head (green line) to get rid of any n-gons or triangles; just continue the green line to the back of the head.

You're doing good with picking up advice - it's the best way to learn. As far as your goals go; the FF models are totally awesome and if you can get to that level you can model any kind of realism you want.

All this talk of head modeling makes me want to improve my skills with it haha - but I've got too many other things on my plate right now ;)
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on September 18, 2013, 05:39:17 pm
Greetings forum,

Please excuse my prolonged absence. I work on a petrochemical plant that has a "shutdown" once a year, which this year resulted in me working 14 hours nighshifts haha, so needless to say that I didn't get a lot of anim8ing done. But with the shutdown behind us I had another look and spent a couple days on Joans head. I'm pleased with the results but please offer your CC and insight. I haven't as yet removed the edge loops as $imon suggested, I still have experimenting to do with that.    I'm very excited to begin the texturing of the head.

Thanks a lot guys
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: Blick Fang on September 19, 2013, 04:01:14 pm
Kylesan, this is absolutely gorgeous!   8)   :D
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: KyleSan on October 02, 2013, 06:32:50 pm
Been playing with some texturing for the head, specifically around the eye area (it seems the most tricky). I've attached a picture of the area under scrutiny. I realize its a bit dark but you should get the idea.

Please offer CC and advice on how to improve it.


Thanks a million.
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: Blick Fang on October 02, 2013, 09:36:18 pm
I think it looks pretty darn good if I don't say so myself    8)
Title: Re: Joan of Arc
Post by: johnar on October 03, 2013, 12:31:28 am
 I also think it looks pretty darn good. Really darn good actually. Nice progress KyleSan. (http://s6.postimg.org/p4cqdev8d/grysmile.gif)