Anim8or Community

General Category => Ongoing Anim8or Development => Topic started by: Steve on November 27, 2014, 07:12:31 pm

Title: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 27, 2014, 07:12:31 pm
I'm updating Point Edit mode fairly drastically. It's long overdue. This is a big job and I think it's reached a point where it's better than before. Please bear with me on during the transition. The major changes are:

Simultaneous editing of Points, Edges and Faces: You can enable any or all of these together.

Dynamic Highlighting: With Fast Select enabled the Point, Edge or Face currently under the mouse is highlighted in red. This makes it easier to see what will happen when you click the mouse. There is a top menu button to toggle Fast Select, hot key <Ctrl-T>. I'm not 100% happy with the red color so let me know what you think.

Thick Edges: An option in the File->ConfigureUI dialog uses thicker lines to draw edges. Try this together with antialiased workspaces for a great look, especially on larger screens.

Consistent of Mouse Buttons: I've changed the use of the mouse buttons to be more consistent.  For example, previously for Arrow Select the left mouse button (LMB) selected one item and deselected the precious ones, the MMB deselected only that one thing, and the RMB added to the selection. For Move the LMB moved things in the plain of the screen, the MMB in the direction of the normals, and the RMB into the screen. The new behavior makes everything act like Arrow Select. Now you can press the <Ctrl> key to move in the direction of the normal.

Space Bar Deslelects: now the <Space> bar deselects everything as it does in the rest of Anim8or.

Smart Selection: You can select only what you can see. In wireframe Points have priority over Edges, over Faces. This allows you to select points and edges in the back part of something. (Of course you can still disable front and  backside components with the [Front] and [Back] buttons.) In solid views the closest thing to the view is selected so you don't accidentally select a hidden edge, etc. If edges or points aren't drawn (are disabled in the UI settings dialog) then the aren't selected by the mouse.

Rotate and Scale tools: I haven't changed these yet except in the way things are selected. My original "pivot" idea simply doesn't work. So in the coming days I'm changing them to be more intuitive. Stay tuned...

Hot key T: toggles through point, edge, face select modes. I intended to have a 4th state that enabled all 3 but forgot to add it for this build.

OK, give the new Point Editor a try and let me know what you think!

Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: kreator on November 27, 2014, 09:03:17 pm
Hmm can no longer close a quad to create a face in Point edit mode..... why??? or am I missing something !! 

This is critical to modelling with anim8or.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Raxx on November 27, 2014, 09:31:21 pm
Erk, yeah I have this problem as well. That is, the add edge tool doesn't snap to other points anymore.

Also, disabling thick lines doesn't save between sessions.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: captaindrewi on November 27, 2014, 10:01:09 pm
looks very sexy....whats the f box symbol for?
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: MvGulik on November 27, 2014, 10:20:21 pm
Quote
There is a top menu button to toggle Fast Select, hot key <Ctrl-T>
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: captaindrewi on November 27, 2014, 11:42:17 pm
I like the red highlight.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 28, 2014, 03:30:23 am
Hmm can no longer close a quad to create a face in Point edit mode. Yes, I'll fix this and post it tomorrow. Ate too much turkey today to do it just now!

disabling thick lines doesn't save between sessions. I have this fixed, too - I used slightly different names to save and restore the setting in the registry.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: headwax on November 28, 2014, 04:09:14 am
looks like anim8or is jumping ahead in leaps and bounds congrats Steve
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on November 28, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
Moving in Z doesn't work.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 28, 2014, 03:44:29 pm
Moving in Z doesn't work. Yes, that's a consequence of making the mouse usage more consistent:

"For Move the LMB moved things in the plain of the screen, the MMB in the direction of the normals, and the RMB into the screen. The new behavior makes everything act like Arrow Select."

I'm still experimenting with ways to support Z axis movement.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on November 28, 2014, 04:05:08 pm
I'm still experimenting with ways to support Z axis movement.
Have you considered introducing 4 toggle-while-held hotkeys (ideally, in a row on the keyboard) for All, X, Y, Z? This method doesn't have to interfere with the click-to-toggle action of the XYZ graphical buttons and can be independent.
F5F8 perhaps?
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 28, 2014, 08:10:50 pm
I posted build 1138 with these issues fixed.

nemyax: As for moving in the Z direction, I have a temporary solution to get you going again. When only the Z axis is enabled the point-edit move tool moves along the Z axis. You can use the "T" hot key to rotate through the enables in this order: PEF->P->E->F->PEF.

headwax: You have some nice work on your blog. Some days I feel like it's  "The Year I went Rusty" for myself!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on November 28, 2014, 08:29:01 pm
Steve
Thanks.
What was your pivot idea that didn't work out? Or do you mean the way things stand now?
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 28, 2014, 09:31:38 pm
nemyax: Yes, the way things stand now. Rotating and scaling is currently done around the Pivot, the zero coordinate point of the mesh. You can move it and rotate it in Pivot Edit mode, but it's rather difficult to know how to position it so that point move in a predictable way.

I think it's much more intuitive to edit work in the current view, based on what you've selected, or in world coordinates. So stay tuned and be sure to let me know what you think about the changes!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on November 28, 2014, 09:45:39 pm
I think it's much more intuitive to edit work in the current view, based on what you've selected
Absolutely. Also, each uninterrupted piece of selection should rotate and scale about its own centre. That's a very intelligent default, but not all modelling software has latched on. It took Blender until last year to get support for that option.
Interestingly, that would make the Rotate Faces and Scale Faces tools redundant, because those would just be regular transforms.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: neirao on November 29, 2014, 12:20:43 am
"Fast Select/thick lines" very cool usefull!!
Thanks Steve!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 29, 2014, 01:00:01 am
Yes, I plan on removing the Rotate Faces and Scale Faces tools.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: cooldude234 on November 29, 2014, 03:56:40 am
I am LOVING the ability to be able to select and move with the same tool, however I think it should have a new icon (one with cursor and move symbol combined).
Say Steve are you planning on adding a variable for the thickness of a line; you know one that the user can have control over. In other words have line thickness as a text box and you put a number in for its thickness (1 would default to 1 pixel width).
I will have to play around with it some more to be of anymore help :P but I'm too tired right now ;)
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 29, 2014, 06:50:10 am
cooldude234: I hadn't planned on a setting for the width, just the enable (width = 2) / disable (width = 1) like there is now. If people think it would be useful I can always add it :)
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: kreator on November 29, 2014, 06:57:52 am
Yes, I plan on removing the Rotate Faces and Scale Faces tools.
Steve If you remove these items how do you plan to implement, I am having trouble with visualising this at the moment.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on November 29, 2014, 07:18:50 am
I am having trouble with visualising this at the moment
For Rotate Faces, you just rotate them about their normals. In the current build's control scheme, you hold down Ctrl for a normal-based transform. For Scale Faces, you just scale them uniformly.
These particular transforms don't need special treatment when a consistent system is in place. And it should work equally well for transforming edges and faces using whatever axis you choose.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 29, 2014, 07:24:30 am
Scale will work the same way, but better because it will scale relative to the selected points, not to the pivot. At least I hope it will be better!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Raxx on November 29, 2014, 08:22:27 am
Hey Steve, I really like the increased pick tolerance. Feels a lot more natural!

I guess I'll repost here some of my thoughts on the new system, if anyone would like to give input on it, they are more than welcome to.

[edit]As for highlight color, red feels a bit stark to me and kind of disrupts that in-the-zone modeling zen thing. I think a yellow-orange (R:255, G:132, B:0) might work well, among other things :)

Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: neirao on November 29, 2014, 01:14:16 pm
Raxx, amazing color interface! Simple and Beauty!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: kreator on November 29, 2014, 03:36:16 pm
Yes that is a good GUI Raxx!
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on November 30, 2014, 01:31:42 am
Raxx: You have lots of good ideas, as usual. Here's some preliminary thoughts/comments.

Quote
Use thick lines just for highlighting and maybe selection.
I agree that this could be useful but it's more work that you might think. That's not to say I don't want to do it.

Quote
Show entire point unclipped when selecting.
That was my intention - I'm still working on the best way to do it.
   
Quote
Moving the mouse off the main window leaves a point/edge/face highlighted.
I'm aware of this but haven't yet found a good way to address it yet either.

Quote
behavior of the right- and middle- mouse buttons
I'm still working on how these should behave. There are a lot of options. You can't distinguish between a click and a drag until the user either moves the mouse or releases the button. The way that I would do this is:

1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button.

Currently on 1) I remove the highlighting and effect the selection.

Quote
highlight color
Yes, As I stated in the top of this topic the overall colors are as yet decided. Your example looks really good but it shows a monochrome mesh which isn't the norm. (On a related note: One idea I have is for a setting that shows everything as a light gray. Seems that this would be useful for modeling because the shape is a bit more obvious.)
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Raxx on November 30, 2014, 06:19:39 am
Quote
Quote
Use thick lines just for highlighting and maybe selection.
I agree that this could be useful but it's more work that you might think. That's not to say I don't want to do it.

I know it's more work, but I think it's worth it! So I'll wait and hope ;)

Quote
Quote
behavior of the right- and middle- mouse buttons
I'm still working on how these should behave. There are a lot of options. You can't distinguish between a click and a drag until the user either moves the mouse or releases the button. The way that I would do this is:

1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button.

Currently on 1) I remove the highlighting and effect the selection.
Yes, that's my thinking as well :) If you click (or click and drag) in empty space, it should deselect and do nothing.

Quote
Quote
highlight color
Yes, As I stated in the top of this topic the overall colors are as yet decided. Your example looks really good but it shows a monochrome mesh which isn't the norm. (On a related note: One idea I have is for a setting that shows everything as a light gray. Seems that this would be useful for modeling because the shape is a bit more obvious.)
Personally, for 99.9% of the modeling I do, I use a gray material. The orange otherwise has as much chance of standing out as any other color (well, you know, unless you consider that bright green catches the eye most of any color, but bright orange is closer to it than red). It would indeed be awesome to have a modeling view option, that gives it a slightly darker gray than the default material (flat, no spec), and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: MvGulik on November 30, 2014, 01:37:41 pm
I personally kinda question the general wisdom of those "deselect all on empty space click"  points of view.

Deselection a (small or potential big) active selection by accident is not something that you would like to happen to easily. Clicking in empty space with the mouse, while editing a selection with the mouse, seems a not to uncommon possible mishap.
(Deselecting all with SPACE, and only with SPACE. Has a lot less change of being used accidentally.)

Also, To me, using different mouse buttons for different selection actions seem a bit of a wast of mouse button use. When using the selection status of the clicked item to add or remove is to or from the current section ... would only require one mouse button, leaving the others mouse buttons for potential other functions. (+having a strong memorable difference between the usage of the different mouse buttons seems to me a good thing to.)

Just my 2 cent thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Trevor on November 30, 2014, 02:44:53 pm
I think I am in agreement with most of the suggestions.

"1) On Mouse Down: Do nothing. The current P/E/F if there is one should already be highlighted.
2A) On Mouse Move: Remove the highlighting. If the highlighted P/E/F is unselected, deselect the rest of the object and select just that part. The continue begin editing the mesh. What happens if you click in empty space? Deselect everything? Or edit using the existing selection(s)?
2B) On Mouse Up: If the mouse hasn't moved, Clear-and-Select, Deselect-One or Add-Select, depending on the button."

I would also question the 2A in relation to current standard.

As it currently stands (unless something changed and I have yet to notice) I can select a P/E/F and then click anywhere else and drag and the selected P/E/F will move.

the rest 1, 2B I agree with, if click on a new P/E/F then others should be de-selected and new one selected (or added to if ctrl-click)

but 2A means that you would have to keep clicking the P/E/F
... actually scrub that.... I think Im ok with it, but I do in fact now have another problem caused by this.
(Unable to modify Selection of P/E/F's)

ok, So, lets say you have n P/E/F's selected and you want to move all of them.

Do you:
just click and drag
Ctrl-Click and drag?

I ask because it seems that to simply click and drag would un-select all other P/E/F's and only move the 1... this is bad.


"and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling."

Can I ask if you mean flat shading?
Set Ambiant to 1.2 and diffuse to 0.001 and click the combine button (=). is this the same effect?
(this flat shading is how I model for GF since the GE engine does not do lighting)
(Also of note, the reason for 0.001 is so that it keeps the texture assigned, if set to 0, the texture is removed)

Trev
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Raxx on November 30, 2014, 04:38:57 pm
I personally kinda question the general wisdom of those "deselect all on empty space click"  points of view.

Deselection a (small or potential big) active selection by accident is not something that you would like to happen to easily. Clicking in empty space with the mouse, while editing a selection with the mouse, seems a not to uncommon possible mishap.
(Deselecting all with SPACE, and only with SPACE. Has a lot less change of being used accidentally.)

Also, To me, using different mouse buttons for different selection actions seem a bit of a wast of mouse button use. When using the selection status of the clicked item to add or remove is to or from the current section ... would only require one mouse button, leaving the others mouse buttons for potential other functions. (+having a strong memorable difference between the usage of the different mouse buttons seems to me a good thing to.)

Just my 2 cent thoughts on this.

Remember, this is for fast select ie tweaking. It's primarily for rapid movement of individual elements along the screen space. 99% of the time, you won't have an active selection to work with, nor would you build up a careful selection using the tool--that's for the normal selection tools in non-fast select mode. Clicking in an empty space to deselect while in tweak mode is both natural and helpful--I've experienced this myself in another modeling program (XSI Mod Tool) and use it quite often.

Traditionally, shift and ctrl are used for adding and removing from the selection. Myself, I've always liked Anim8or's three-button selection method and it's easy to remember which does what. A lot of times in other programs, I mix up what shift and control do--that's not the case with Anim8or because it's unique.

As it currently stands (unless something changed and I have yet to notice) I can select a P/E/F and then click anywhere else and drag and the selected P/E/F will move.
...
but 2A means that you would have to keep clicking the P/E/F[/s] ... actually scrub that.... I think Im ok with it, but I do in fact now have another problem caused by this.
(Unable to modify Selection of P/E/F's)

Hello Trevor, again I'll remind you that this is Fast Select we're talking about, as I mentioned to MvGulik. Fast Select is a tweaking tool, primarily something you use to rapidly move stuff around piece by piece in an intuitive manner. It's not a replacement to normal mode, which is used for more careful, precise editing. To be exact, Fast Select is a combination of the selection tools and whatever transformation tool it is--you single click to modify the selection if you really have to, you click drag to transform it. Not sure what build you're using, but if you're in Fast Select mode and have a selection, and left-click and drag in an empty space, it deselects everything (because it's using the mouse button select functionality). If you right-click and drag in an empty space, it drags the current selection. It's weird. Don't get me started on middle-clicking and dragging lol.

This is also why I want MMB to use the transform-along-normal functionality instead of the Ctrl button. This way the Ctrl modifier key can be used for painting the selection when clicking and dragging across whatever it is you want to paint a selection, and therefore be consistent with the original selection tools while mitigating a faster editing process.

ok, So, lets say you have n P/E/F's selected and you want to move all of them.

Do you:
just click and drag
Ctrl-Click and drag?

I ask because it seems that to simply click and drag would un-select all other P/E/F's and only move the 1... this is bad.
I think you misinterpreted the actions Steve suggested. In Fast-Select, click dragging on a selection moves all selected elements. Click-dragging off a selection doesn't move the selected elements, and newly selects and moves an element if it's on it, or otherwise deselects. So to answer your question, you click on the selection and drag.

Quote
"and also does a "Headlight" effect, where the only light source is from the camera, thus illuminating the mesh no matter the viewing angle. This is my favorite in other modeling programs, and an extremely helpful aid to modeling."

Can I ask if you mean flat shading?
Set Ambiant to 1.2 and diffuse to 0.001 and click the combine button (=). is this the same effect?
(this flat shading is how I model for GF since the GE engine does not do lighting)
(Also of note, the reason for 0.001 is so that it keeps the texture assigned, if set to 0, the texture is removed)

Trev

Nope, not flat shading. Flat shading is a horrible aid for modeling, you can't see contours at all. Look at the video I made of Headlight view and a good shading for modeling, which allows you to edit at any angle without having to fight the lighting:



Not really the best video :P The light source seems to be an infinite one, rotated slightly down at an angle relative to the camera. It's hard to tell with the video, but if you rotated to, say, the underside of the squirrel's chin or inside the mouth, it'd be illuminated from that angle still.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on December 19, 2014, 01:17:59 pm
Steve
Are you planning to add any modelling tools? I'm especially interested in edge dissolve and edge collapse, and I'm sure others are, too.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: cooldude234 on January 11, 2015, 09:41:52 am
I personally kinda question the general wisdom of those "deselect all on empty space click"  points of view.

Deselection a (small or potential big) active selection by accident is not something that you would like to happen to easily.
I think that should be left in; but however I still propose a fix to it.
I think that there should be an undo selection and redo selection added to the undo redo list. In other words if you accidentally unclick all the faces you specifically selected, then you could easily hit undo deselect. And if you wanted to take it further you could have it as a separate undo function like shift-ctr-z instead of normal ctr-z (and you could access it from the menus as well in a similar fashion).
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on January 29, 2015, 10:25:23 pm
nemyax: I'm considering new modeling tools but want to finish all the UI changes that I'm working on now and get an official release out. New modeling tools certainly might include edge dissolve, edge/face collapse, and Raxx's idea on an improved cut tool.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on February 06, 2015, 08:32:32 pm
Raxx's idea on an improved cut tool
Is there a link to the description?

[Added by Steve]: Here's a link: Topo Tool (http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php/topic,5087.0.html)
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: captaindrewi on February 08, 2015, 06:15:44 pm
[/youtube]
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Water Music on February 08, 2015, 07:43:59 pm
Has anyone else noticed problems trying to select vertices on subdivision models with smooth shading enabled?  I find it works in wireframe mode but not smooth shading.

I'm also finding the non-uniform scale tool to be a bit erratic when only selecting vertices, particularly when trying to bind it to a specific axis.  I'm finding that it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, and is consistently ignoring the xyz axis buttons.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: davdud101 on February 11, 2015, 12:48:07 am
Why does a topographical (?) knife sound like turning off back faces and then just cutting and hitting each previous vertex before cutting the next line?
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on February 16, 2015, 08:26:48 am
It's is pretty weird using it with the mirror
It isn't. And the mirror should work reliably regardless of what you use.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: davdud101 on February 17, 2015, 06:40:04 pm
I mean that new(ish) live mirroring tool in Anim8or. I think mostly in that if you cut two lines to points that lie directly on a axis, the points automatically get joined. Maybe that's not weird for you, but to me it is.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on February 19, 2015, 01:58:40 am
davdud101: Can you show me what happens now and what you'd like it to do?
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: davdud101 on February 19, 2015, 02:01:02 am
Well, I think it may be a more of a me thing... I just need to learn how to use the tool better. It works just like it should, when I look at it in the scope of things.
I think sometimes its that you can join faces and make somewhat strange edits *across the axis.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Trevor on February 20, 2015, 04:42:33 pm
I take it someone else likes stingray. Kinda spammy though without a comment and the fact its in completly the wrong topic.

New ideas look good, just seen the split topic and it looks interesting.

Trev
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: captaindrewi on February 20, 2015, 07:57:24 pm
HI trev..the forum offers ie provides for this form of communication... perhaps i was being too subtle, too modern, too connected to the zeitgeist ,i do stop short of non sequitur humour/communication a big favourite of mine as intellectually i know not everyone is on the same plane....hey but as the man says...ANYTHING  can happen in the next half hour.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: kreator on February 20, 2015, 08:22:16 pm
"This is the Voice of the Mysterons ...... Earthmen, We need to have some progress with Scene mode started as soon as possible ."
"Unless you do so in the next half hour Our Agent Captain Black will take steps"
"You have been warned Earthmen"
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Trevor on February 22, 2015, 05:25:16 pm
Ah, I understand now.

It would have been better had you only posted the required segments though. Posting the whole intro just looks like spam.

Hehe, nice use of mysterons.

Trev
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: nemyax on February 22, 2015, 08:59:55 pm
I always thought Mysterons was a Portishead song, but what do you know.
Title: Re: Big Changes to Point Edit Tools
Post by: Steve on February 22, 2015, 11:57:47 pm
OK enough spam :-)