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General Category => Anim8or v0.98 Discussion Forum => Topic started by: nemyax on January 08, 2015, 02:54:52 pm

Title: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 08, 2015, 02:54:52 pm
I'd like to raise the issue of the shifting point of interest when you dolly (RMB-drag outside the circle) in arc rotate mode. It was discussed before (http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg36083.html#msg36083) but no decision was made.
Steve, you never said yes, but you never said no either. Do you agree that the current behaviour should be changed so that the point of interest is retained during the dollying?
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: johnar on January 08, 2015, 10:08:38 pm
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...I was talking about dollying (moving the camera/view forward and backwardóRMB outside the circle).

  I don't have any issues at all with arc rotate, but think that maybe you and i use it a little bit differently.
 eg: lets say i have some objects spread around the workspace, and i want to zoom in on the object in the top left corner.This is how i would do it. 
Start in ,(normally),front view.-> activate arc rotate -> then RMB inside circle to bring the view of that object into the middle of circle -> then MMB to zoom in to that object.
 Because using RMB outside circle barely makes a noticeable difference in orthogonal views, (Frnt,Right,Left,Top,Bttm), i'm assuming you're starting from perspective view?
 If you were to start from a different view and have a go the same way as above, then the issue you're explaining might not be such a problem. ?
 
As far as rotating around an object goes. Sometimes it quicker and more efficeint to hotkey back to (eg) front view - arc rotate - rotate view around object from a distance, and once you've got the angle of view right, then, as above, RMB inside circle to center the view of the object, then MMB to zoom in on it.

 

Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 08, 2015, 10:37:22 pm
i'm assuming you're starting from perspective view?
I use a single perspective view most of the time.

lets say i have some objects spread around the workspace, and i want to zoom in on the object in the top left corner.
Select all, F, select object, F. But that's not the point. I want the dolly tool to respect what I'm trying to get closer to (or away from), not change my point of interest. To me it looks like the focus-shifting behaviour is only due to an implementation oversight. You don't get this in any other software.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: johnar on January 08, 2015, 11:31:18 pm
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Quote
lets say i have some objects spread around the workspace, and i want to zoom in on the object in the top left corner.
Select all, F, select object, F. But that's not the point.
I am in no way suggesting that you simply Frame your object

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i'm assuming you're starting from perspective view?
I use a single perspective view most of the time

 Well, to me, this is your problem.

If you were to start from a different view and have a go the same way as above, then the issue you're explaining might not be such a problem. ?
 
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 09, 2015, 12:22:00 am
this is your problem
No. It hasn't been in years and in a dozen programs, and it didn't start to be today.
johnar, you seem to imply I'm making a nonsense request (that'll be for Steve to decide) and should be using a particular workaround. You also suggest zooming, which in a perspective view means changing the FOV. But this is about dollying, which means moving the viewpoint in and out. There's a place for each of them; zooming works fine already, but it's no substitute for dollying.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: johnar on January 09, 2015, 12:47:02 am
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johnar, you seem to imply I'm making a nonsense request
Not at all. Just thought you might be overlooking something.
 Arc rotate viewing in perspective view can sometimes cause odd results. Thats all.

EDIT: I've always seen the arc rotate as an 'object viewing tool', to 'pan, rotate and scale' your object workspace view. Not as a 'camera'.
 I understand the difference in dollying and zooming, but consider those to be camera options, therefore scene mode functions.
 So, a misunderstanding, not a belittlement.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Raxx on January 09, 2015, 06:03:22 am
Moved to the v0.98 discussion board.
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To me it looks like the focus-shifting behaviour is only due to an implementation oversight. You don't get this in any other software.
I don't think this was an implementation oversight. The purpose is to let the user move both the view's location and pivot point, the same way it does when panning inside the circle. This way you don't have to rotate the view all over the place trying to get the pivot point inside, say, the tip of a finger. Instead you can pan to it and then RMB drag outside the circle until you see the pivot is where you want it. This is spectacular for when working in orthographic views, and I think Steve implemented it with that in mind since ortho is what most users would use. (granted, component framing would render this feature fairly trivial...but still good for tweaking view position)

My suggestion is to use MMB to dolly instead of zoom. That is, it moves the view forward/backward while its pivot point stays in place (as nemyax suggested--visually this only affects perspective view). Retain the RMB-outside-circle functionality for ortho users' benefit and random scenarios for perspective users. Change FOV zoom to shift+MMB (ortho won't have noticeable changes). The only conflict is the camera system in the scene editor--so just make MMB move the camera forward and backward instead of changing the FOV. Camera movement is changed far more often than FOV (or should be, in cinematography), so making MMB move the camera makes sense.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 09, 2015, 06:31:04 am
My suggestion is to use MMB to dolly instead of zoom.
That would be awesome.

component framing would render this feature fairly trivial
Absolutely. I just didn't dare cram two requests into one thread.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 14, 2015, 11:16:15 pm
nemyax: Currently the RMB dollies when dragged up and down outside the circle to the exact point at which the viewer (perspective views) or the camera (camera views) is aiming - the center of the screen. I don't understand how you want this changed.

Update: Do you mean to keep the camera's height above the ground plain constant?

Note: there is a bug in the camera view - the camera's movement isn't changed in the animation keys. But the temporary change in view does what I describe.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 15, 2015, 04:33:46 am
Steve
No, not the height.
Suppose you framed an object with F in a perspective view. Now dolly away from it and arc rotate the view. In the scheme that I'm proposing, the rotation still happens about the centre of the object (the arc rotation pivot has stayed put). Currently in Anim8or, it happens about a point that's closer to the viewpoint (the arc rotation pivot has dollied along with it).
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Raxx on January 15, 2015, 05:10:29 am
To put it in simpler words, the forward/backward dolly action needs to happen without moving the view's pivot point. The pivot point currently moves with the viewer when dollying. It needs to stay put and not move with the viewer.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 15, 2015, 10:16:01 pm
OK so 'F' framing would set the pivot in the center on the object in X/Y/Z. Moving sideways or up and down would move the pivot. And of course rotating would rotate around the pivot.

Note: This means you can't dolly forwards beyond the pivot point.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 15, 2015, 10:30:23 pm
'F' framing would set the pivot in the center on the object in X/Y/Z
Would it be difficult to frame selected points/edges/faces, as Raxx pointed out?

Moving sideways or up and down would move the pivot.
That's right.

This means you can't dolly forwards beyond the pivot point.
Yes, and you should decelerate as you get closer.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 16, 2015, 12:33:33 am
Would it be difficult to frame selected points/edges/faces, as Raxx pointed out?
No, but that's a different subject :)  I'll be adding it soon :)


Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 16, 2015, 04:28:38 am
I'll be adding it soon :)
Super!
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2015, 02:10:30 am
OK here's what I'm implementing (feedback appreciated):

Changes for Perspective and Camera views - no changes for all others:

In Arc-Rotate:

LMB: Rotates in various ways.  POI does not change. (No change)
MMB: Click inside the circle dollies in and out.  POI does not change. (Change)
MMB: Click outside the circle zooms in and out.  POI does not change. (Change)
RMB: Click inside the circle moves the camera sideways.  POI moves along with camera. (No change)
RMB: Click outside the circle moved the camera towards or away from the POI and the POI moves along with it. (No change)

Mouse Wheel:

Dolly towards or away from the POI. (Change)

Note: There is no true PAN where the viewpoint spins around but doesn't move. I'm working on getting that in as well (i.e. if the <Ctrl> key is pressed).

I hadn't realized how useful this would be until I implemented it - so thanks for keeping on reminding me about it until I finally did something :)
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 22, 2015, 04:06:49 am
From the description, it's just what the doctor ordered =)
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Kyle on January 24, 2015, 01:17:36 am
Not sure I'll fully understand how this will all work but I'm definitely excited to see these changes in action. I've wanted changes to the arc rotate system for years even though I struggle to explain how. I just know It takes me too long to navigate environments in anim8or. To be able to dolly and rotate more efficiently would be a big improvement.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: johnar on January 24, 2015, 07:41:37 am
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Not sure I'll fully understand how this will all work but I'm definitely excited to see these changes in action. ........ To be able to dolly and rotate more efficiently would be a big improvement.
Defineately some interesting changes. Am sure it will be an improvement.
Its a funny thing tho, since year one, using arc rotate in perspective mode caused some pretty strange views, so i've always kept away from that.
 And using arc rotate in camera mode, well, i always thought that was a no-no...lol.
 So, learn something every day....(http://s6.postimg.org/4y98eizkt/grywink.gif)
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Kyle on January 24, 2015, 09:47:12 pm
Yeah, using perspective view is a necessary evil for doing indoor stuff, otherwise you never get to see whats going on inside it unless its a wireframe, or you hide entire walls/ceilings. It takes a lot of practice to use effectively. What I find myself doing a lot is selecting clusters of objects that are big, but not entire room big. and then framing that so there isn't too much distortion going on while using arc rotate.

Edit: Just to elaborate further, the size of what you frame plays a huge role in all this. If the object you select to frame is, say, a door knob, you'll get an extremely distorted view in perspective mode. If you select the entire room, it'll be hard to move around inside it, not to mention it'll look a lot flatter than it needs to. Almost like a telephoto lens. Even though you can zoom in/out after framing, the center point stays the same so this wont help you much. So you need to select things inside the room. If you have a lot of smaller objects, just make sure you're selecting more than one to cover more area, then frame than in perspective view.
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: johnar on January 25, 2015, 12:06:43 am
Thats really interesting Kyle, and a big help.
 Thanks for that.
It never occured to me to go to perspective view to get inside..(http://s6.postimg.org/zd57j8ja5/gryrolleyes.gif).....slap forehead...
 
 Have just tried it, certainly better than trying to look through windows, or straining to see bones  through a heavy wireframe...lol
 (or hiding stuff, and anim8ing a character inside to interact with 'invisible/hidden' objects.)

Quote
It takes a lot of practice to use effectively.
What I find myself doing a lot is selecting clusters of objects that are big, but not entire room big. and then framing that so there isn't too much distortion going on.
I'll keep this in mind and start using this view a lot in scene mode, me thinks.
 Thanks again. (http://s6.postimg.org/p4cqdev8d/grysmile.gif)

Steve.
 Bug?. Arc Rotate does nothing in 'other camera views' ?

Edit: Kyle re your edit in last post.
 Ok, cool. Nice one. Thanks. Cheers. (http://s6.postimg.org/p4cqdev8d/grysmile.gif)
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 26, 2015, 09:45:22 pm
I'm fixing arc-rotate for camera and spotlight views, also the mouse wheel. You'll be able to dolly (arc-rotate center circle, normal mouse wheel) and zoom (Arc-rotate outside of circle or <Ctrl>+inside circle, and <Ctrl>+mouse wheel).

There are a few complications.  It's different when the camera is automatically following a target - then the dollying (dolling???) works more or less as expected. But the POI isn't defined as cleanly otherwise. Currently you can type F to center the camera and set the POI but it's not set as a key.  Once I've posted everything you can help me decide how to handle this.

New build should be out soon ...
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 29, 2015, 10:37:44 pm
Build 1159 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1159.zip) was just posted with this added. It's slightly different that my original post (differences in italics):

Changes for Perspective, Camera and Spotlight views - no changes for all others:

In Arc-Rotate:

LMB: Rotates in various ways.  POI does not change. (No change)
MMB: Dollies in and out.  POI does not change. (Change)
MMB with <Ctrl> key pressed: zooms in and out.  POI does not change. (Change)
RMB: Click inside the circle moves the camera sideways.  POI moves along with camera. (No change)
RMB: Click outside the circle moved the camera towards or away from the POI and the POI moves along with it. (No change)

Mouse Wheel:

Dolly towards or away from the POI.   POI does not change.  (Change)
<Ctrl> key pressed: zooms in and out.  POI does not change. (Change)

Note: There is no true PAN where the viewpoint spins around but doesn't move. I'm working on getting that in as well (i.e. with the LMB if the <Ctrl> key is pressed).

Check it out!
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: nemyax on January 29, 2015, 10:47:12 pm
MMB with or without Ctrl still zooms in perspective mode in arc-rotate (FOV info in the status bar). The wheel, however, dollies (distance from POI info in the status bar).
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 29, 2015, 11:49:57 pm
Argh! I must have broken that when I finished up the code.  I'll fix it .....
Title: Re: Arc rotate: dollying and point of interest
Post by: Steve on January 31, 2015, 01:49:46 pm
Fixed in build 1162.