Anim8or Community

General Category => Ongoing Anim8or Development => Topic started by: Steve on November 16, 2015, 10:51:29 pm

Title: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 16, 2015, 10:51:29 pm
Overall using the trackball for editing bones in the Scene editor works quite well. There are a few minor bugs, however, that I noticed after I'd posted the update.  I'm in the process of fixing these.

Please reply to this topic with other issues that you may find.

Direct bone manipulation: If you click-drag on a bone to rotate it instead of using the trackball, it makes an initial jump to a different location. I know what's causing this and should have it fixed soon.

Wierd crash: Clicking on a Figure in Rotate Bone mode from the Camera view can crash. I'm still chasing this one down.

Tiny Trackballs: In the Camera and Perspective views the trackball size isn't correct. This should be easy to fix.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 21, 2015, 09:09:04 am
I've noticed you can't select a bone in scene editor unless the fast select is on.......(1198),
 and something else, the selected bone doesn't stay 'orange' when you move the cursor away from it. In earlier versions, the selected bone(s) stayed 'visibly' selected until it was 'un-selected'.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 21, 2015, 09:26:37 pm
johnar[: yes, I see how that could be a problem :)  I have a fix for the bugs shown above about ready. I'll fix this before I post it.

Thanks for the bug report!
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 22, 2015, 10:03:32 pm
These bugs should all be fixed in build 1199 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1199.zip) :)  Give it a try and let me know what you think!
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 23, 2015, 05:53:28 am
Hi steve.

Direct bone manipulation isn't jumping like it was.

Trackball size seems fine to me, and i've clicked  many times on my figure in camera view without a crash.

 Can now select bones with fast-select off, and notice now that bone stays visibly selected.
        Thanks Steve. (http://s24.postimg.org/o4uvmxwjl/Thumbs_Up_G1.gif)

Found another bug: Cannot select multiple bones in scene mode. (left click 1 bone, right click to select additional bones, not working)
 Works in figure and sequence modes tho. (http://s6.postimg.org/4y98eizkt/grywink.gif)
 Awesome stuff steve. really really cool.                                                             (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 23, 2015, 08:05:46 pm
When editing joint angles you (currently) can't select multiple bones in either of the Figure, Sequence or Scene editors.  But I think this should be changed.  I want all three to behave the same, and here's what I propose:

Clicking on a selected bone:

All mouse buttons: leaves all bones selected and dragging rotates the bone that was clicked.

Clicking on an unselected bone:

LMB and MMB: deselects everything and selects that one bone.
RMB: Leaves everything selected and selects the bone.
Dragging in Fast Select mode at the same time does an edit.

Clicking not on a bone:

Deselects everything.

When clicking directly on a bone (i.e. not the trackball):

LMB rotates the bone in screen Z axis,
MMB rotates the bone in screen Y axis,
RMB rotates the bone in screen X axis.

I should have this ready soon. Let me know what you think (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: thecolclough on November 23, 2015, 11:07:29 pm
I want all three to behave the same, and here's what I propose:
sounds good on paper - will be interesting to see it in action
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 24, 2015, 04:47:52 am
 
 Am hesitant, and slightly struggling, to post feed back straight away, until i've got this out in the open, and clarified.
 Something has recently occured to me, which i posted last night, but withdrew later because i didn't want to, possibly, open a can of worms.....
I think other peoples input is important here.
 The thing is, with the implementation of fast-select, is there really any reason to be able to select multiple bones??
 Although i have always liked to select multiple bones, it was mainly so as not to need to go back and forth between select - rotate - select - rotate - etc...
 Now, with fast select, i'm trying to think of a scenario where i would need to select multiple bones...... anybody?

 Sorry steve, but perhaps there actually is no reason to continue with multiple bone selection.......and if this does turn out to be the case, then perhaps it would/could save you a lot of work, and also help, a little, to keep anim8or 'light'. (one of the outstanding things about anim8or has always been the size of it. All this power in only a few megabytes.) (Maybe every little bit counts..)
 . will watch this space for anyone to post scenario(s) of when to select multiple bones...... hope i haven't upset anything.... (http://s13.postimg.org/668ay1knn/blush1gry.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 24, 2015, 05:37:38 am
Quote from: johnar
with the implementation of fast-select, is there really any reason to be able to select multiple bones??
Either supporting multiple bones or not is fairly straightforward.  Neither one is really harder that the other.  The main purpose of these development builds is to figure out what is the best.  Once that's done I can make all the little adjustments and bug fixes to make Anim8or consistent, which is the bulk of the work.

So ... I'll post an update with multiple bone selection (after a little more testing) and everyone can experiment with 1199 (without) and 1200 (with) and tell me what they like and what they don't.  How's that sound?  (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 24, 2015, 11:24:11 am
That sounds absolutely fantabulous (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)

 What originally inspired the thought was this:
(http://s1.postimg.org/nhx6n32sf/handsmall.jpg)
 I was going to suggest that perhaps the trackball needs to be able to be turned on and off, for situations as in the pic above.
 That somehow got me thinking, hey is this even necessary any more......
 So, anyway, thanks for the perfect answer Steve, and the truly inspiring progress with Anim8or.
(http://s24.postimg.org/o4uvmxwjl/Thumbs_Up_G1.gif)(http://s24.postimg.org/o4uvmxwjl/Thumbs_Up_G1.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: thecolclough on November 24, 2015, 05:53:31 pm
Either supporting multiple bones or not is fairly straightforward.
straightforward enough that it could be a user-toggelable option?
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 24, 2015, 08:31:27 pm
OK I've posted build 1200 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1200.zip) which allows multiple bone selection, and fixes the problem of not being able to select any bones in the Scene editor when fast-select is off and a few other things.

For fun try Ctrl-Left/Right/Up/Down arrows (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)

thecolclough: yes, an option is always possible if it's needed.  But all things equal, simpler is better. So give the two builds a try and let me know what you think.

Note: Either way dynamic highlighting will be supported for both fast-select and not. It was broken in a couple cases in build 1199.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 25, 2015, 05:51:47 am
 Thanks Steve. Have downloaded build 1200 and managed to get a quick playaround before i need to go out. Will post more as i can.... but for now....

Your proposals in earlier post. (this thread)
Clicking on a selected bone: yes
Clicking on an unselected bone: yes
Clicking not on a bone: yes
 All make perfect sense, and somehow familiar.

 But, i am a little confused in regards to 'clicking directly on a bone.(i.e. not the trackball)':
 ie:LMB rotates the bone in screen Z axis,
    MMB rotates the bone in screen Y axis,
    RMB rotates the bone in screen X axis.
 
 Originally, and in the manual, (http://s6.postimg.org/4y98eizkt/grywink.gif), its, (to rotate bone):
LMB = X axis
MMB = Z axis
RMB = Y axis

 I see you have written 'in screen'.
 When dealing with figures, (bones), i don't see that the screen view should affect/change which mouse button to rotate which axis.? (edited. tried to make it clearer)
 (unless i'm missing something)
 So, shouldn't it remain the same as originally in the manual? (as above).

 One more thing: I would like to suggest that if multiple bone selection remains an option, then we do really need to be able to turn trackball on and off. As shown in my earlier post of a hand, with fingers selected, the overlapping trackballs can become impossibly confusing.

 Oh, and Ctrl-Left/Right/Up/Down arrows  don't seem to do anything here except change views?

 So, 3 things actually.... (http://s6.postimg.org/p4cqdev8d/grysmile.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: cooldude234 on November 25, 2015, 07:42:14 am
What originally inspired the thought was this:
(http://s1.postimg.org/nhx6n32sf/handsmall.jpg)
 I was going to suggest that perhaps the trackball needs to be able to be turned on and off, for situations as in the pic above.
 

I think what should be done here instead is have all the bones selected to have one big track ball which rotates all the bones selected around the most base bone's (from what is selected) origin.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 25, 2015, 09:13:57 am
 Wouldn't work in cases where fingers are positioned differently and seperately.
 Would work for simple open/close hand, grabbing something...(http://s6.postimg.org/p4cqdev8d/grysmile.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 25, 2015, 09:30:08 am
Quote
Clicking on an unselected bone:
LMB and MMB: deselects everything and selects that one bone.
RMB: Leaves everything selected and selects the bone.

Heres an idea.
 Keep LMB to deselect everything and select that one bone, and use MMB to turn trackball on/off on that bone! (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 25, 2015, 05:15:24 pm
johnar: the reason that I changed the rotations for the LMB, etc. is that that functionality was replaced by the trackball. Then I combined the rotate and bone length functions so you could add new bones very quickly (click-drag to add a new bone in whatever length and position you wanted in one action). New bones are added in plane of the screen.

Given how that worked, when rotating bones directly (i.e. not using the trackball) you click-drag the mouse on a bone using the "normal" LMB and it rotates exactly in the same way it does when you add bones, in the screen's Z-axis.

OK then there are two more mouse buttons.  I thought adding the ability to rotate in the screen's X- and Y-axis could use the other buttons - perhaps this is to complex. Those rotations aren't as common and you can always use the trackball. Maybe the best thing to do is keep the rotations the same for all mouse buttons and just change the selection action for the MMB and RMB.

Proposed change:


When clicking directly on a bone (i.e. not the trackball):

LMB rotates the bone in screen Z axis,
MMB rotates the bone in screen Y axis Z axis,
RMB rotates the bone in screen X axis Z axis.

Comments welcome :)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 25, 2015, 10:47:30 pm
Ok. Thanks for that explanation Steve.
Quote
"Then I combined the rotate and bone length functions so you could add new bones very quickly (click-drag to add a new bone in whatever length and position you wanted in one action). New bones are added in plane of the screen".
This is totally understandable in Figure mode. Nice one.
 When it comes to animating a figure in sequence and scene modes, however,(when not using trackball, and clicking directly on the bone), it is far easier to use the original mouse button functions for rotating a bone along its true axis. (the colored axis paths shown when 'show axis' is turned on)
 So, is it possible to keep the original LMB-X axis, RMB-Y axis, and MMB-Z axis, in sequence and scene modes? (When clicking directly on a bone (i.e. not the trackball))
 Am also looking forward to others thoughts/comments.
 Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 26, 2015, 12:00:06 am
johnar: I could do this but we need to work out how to select new bones when fast select is off.  If the MMB deselects (maybe we can drop this) then it can't be used to rotate, things like this.

Also note that the original colored axis indications are not the same as the axis in the trackball. They are the computer euler angles while a trackball is a orthogonal 3D space representing the current joint's orientation.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: thecolclough on November 26, 2015, 10:37:37 am
If the MMB deselects (maybe we can drop this) then it can't be used to rotate, things like this.
couldn't it be made to work the same as the object-mode move tool does with FS enabled, i.e. a simple click and a click-and-drag do two different things?  the logical implementation (at least to my thinking) would be: MMB-click deselects, while MMB-drag moves/rotates.  that works pretty well in Object mode.

obviously with FS off, then MMB always moves/rotates rather than deselecting.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 27, 2015, 10:07:07 pm
   
Quote
Quote
If the MMB deselects (maybe we can drop this) then it can't be used to rotate, things like this.
couldn't it be made to work the same as the object-mode move tool does with FS enabled, i.e. a simple click and a click-and-drag do two different things?  the logical implementation (at least to my thinking) would be: MMB-click deselects, while MMB-drag moves/rotates.  that works pretty well in Object mode.

obviously with FS off, then MMB always moves/rotates rather than deselecting.
If this works, then, with FS off, could MMB be used in conjunction with a key, to deselect?
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 27, 2015, 11:23:58 pm
I'm experimenting with various options and the one that seems most consistent makes Fast-Select and Non-Fast-Select almost identical. The only different between them is that clicking on an unselected bone doesn't allow editing unless Fast-Select is enabled. Everything else is the same.

Click without drag only changes the selection (LMB=1 bone, MMB=deselect bone, RMB=add bone like
everywhere else). Click-drag directly on a bone rotates in the X/Y/Z axes, depending on the button. OK so far, so good.

However there is one small inconsistency that I can't eliminate with the all three buttons used for rotation like this: For the MMB I don't know whether to deselect the bone on not until the button is released since moving does a rotation and leaves the bone selected, while non moving leaves it deselected. So you will see the effect of the selection immediately for the LMB and RMB - but not until you move the mouse or release the button for the MMB.

I don't see this as a big issue and think the functionality of being able to rotate in all 3 axis by directly clicking on the bone is worth keeping. And there aren't any new keys to remember to hold down, etc. so I think it will be easier to learn.

I'll have something posted soon for everyone to try. Hopefully we're nearing the end of tweaking how this all works :)

Note: I haven't forgotten about being able to hide individual trackballs.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on November 28, 2015, 09:49:27 am
Nice one Steve. That sounds excellent.  :)
Quote
Note: I haven't forgotten about being able to hide individual trackballs.
(http://s24.postimg.org/o4uvmxwjl/Thumbs_Up_G1.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on November 29, 2015, 11:44:50 pm
I've posted build 1201 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1201.zip) with what is hopefully the final design for trackball bone editing interface. There are still some weird rotations with bone limits but that's not quite finished. The executive summary is:

1. Clicking on a trackball edits as you'd expect.  No changes to any selections.
2. Click-no drag on a bone only selects/deselects using the normal LMB/MMB/RMB rules.
3. Click-dragging on an unselected bone deselects everything and selects that bone. In fast select mode you can rotate it.  In non fast select it's only selected. This is the only difference between fast select and non.
3. Click-dragging on a selected bone rotates it in the axis for what ever button you clicked with.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: thecolclough on November 30, 2015, 06:18:43 pm
sounds good; nice and consistent with how other tools have been developing - will take it for a spin ASAP =]
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on December 03, 2015, 11:01:09 am
When click-dragging, (FS) on a bone there is wierdnessess, which can be seen by a fairly simple test. This happens whether or not there are joint limits.
 It seems, when animating a figure it is necessary to be in a standard view. (when click-dragging directly on bone)?. Once the view is rotated, (arc rotate), thats when things don't work as expected.
 Heres the test, can someone please concur....

Open anim8or 1201, or any build with trackball, and open an earlier version, pre trackball.
 Import the same figure into each one.
 Goto scene mode and add figure and have 3 views, front (large view), top and left.
 Arc-rotate the front view slightly off center in both instances.
 In pre-trackball build, (arc-rotated view), Click-drag thigh bone forward/backward on X axis. (LMB). Perfect X axis rotation. Same with Y and Z.
 Now, try the same in 1201........(or other build with trackball) 
 Rotation is not confined to selected axis only
 Is this anything to do with the complexities of having both euler and orthogonal  calculations happening at the same time, or something along those lines...???


 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on December 06, 2015, 06:06:30 pm
johnar: Yes, I changed how click-dragging directly on the bone works when I added the trackball.  I wasn't really sure what to do there but at the time it seemed more consistent to use Screen-Coordinates.  But as you point out some functionality was lost when I did this.  Also it's redundant since you can always use Screen-Coordinates mode and the trackball for the same edit.

I'll put together a build with the old rotations for direct bone editing and let everyone try that out.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: johnar on December 07, 2015, 09:15:44 am
Thanks steve. Thats magic.
 I, for one, will definately be in favour of keeping the old rotations for direct bone editing.  Having that option, along with trackball, really would be the best of both worlds.
 Absolutely cool.
Quote
Note: I haven't forgotten about being able to hide individual trackballs.
Quote
Hopefully we're nearing the end of tweaking how this all works :)

 The updates you've made here have made a massive difference to animating in Anim8or. These last few  tweaks and fixes, and she'll be a real pleasure to drive.
Cheers steve.  (http://s24.postimg.org/o4uvmxwjl/Thumbs_Up_G1.gif)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: AlecJames on December 10, 2016, 09:24:54 am
Version 1258
I have a figure in scene editor that I have scaled down (0.1ish).  The bone track balls are tiny in top / side / front views.  I'm fairly sure this is related to my unusual scaling.
A
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on December 10, 2016, 11:50:11 pm
Oops! I forgot to include the element's scale when I computed the size of the widget. To keep the widget a constant size I need to undo the scale factor  (http://s8.postimg.org/j64xwcx9d/Big_Grin_Gry.gif). I'll fix it.
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: AlecJames on December 14, 2016, 07:39:25 pm
Thanks Steve :)
Title: Re: Trackball in the Scene Editor
Post by: Steve on December 14, 2016, 11:10:56 pm
Should be fixed with build 1263 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1263.zip).