http://spinefinger.netfirms.com/main.htm

...and I can't believe it, his colors are done with traditional methods...prisma color pencils...I gotta try those one of these days...I'm told they're expensive..

MARKW has sharp eye for good concepts..Look :

http://spinefinger.netfirms.com/Vehicles/Vehicles_08.htm

I like this artist; is really good

http://spinefinger.netfirms.com/Characters/Characters_03.htm

parts i remember is useing 4 primitives sphere for the head ,3 cylinders torso ,1st style arm and , 2nd style arm and bridged them together connected extrude was used quite alot also edges loops on making the folds in the arms

hmm... thinking of tutorials unfinished tut
i did have moreless a complete tut but had lost the files when i got new pc now ive kinda lost intrest infixing it But...

I have not started yet. But I think I'll have to if people start jumping in left and right. I've been busy with a weekend re-writing my program MLAB.

You've seen real BOX MODELING TIME-LAPSES. Where's the smoke and mirrors ?

The point is not whether you can achieve the same end with poly by poly. That's a forgone conclusion. The point is ... how many "turning points" do you have in your modelling sequence ? Can you back track to model-17 of 33 models and reuse it easily ?

Here's a question for ya ? Why do you very rarely come across poly by poly based modelling time-lapses ? When I think about that ... I always draw the same (and probably biased) conclusion.

But doing a tut takes me more time than actual modelling. I also hate a bit working from references, maybe as I did at company, and as when I draw in pencil the reference is in my head, or I just look at it but I never trace it.

I am into several projects now. Main reason didnt took part in this. I have to ask anothe rguy if I can show progress on my model. We're doing an animated intro.

I am almost sure he wont let me show, but i can always ask. It's being done box modelling (Mirai's way)

BTW, as I tried to say, is also a software for each type of doing..maybe point to point is better for the tools anim8or has available.

But also read the bob paragraph, and seems he does not use point to point, but nearer tools for box modelling.

Max guys at polycount, in vast majority use box modelling. I don't know, there you can find great tuts of box modelling.

Steve is true, that's just subdivision between 2 and 3, the most basic step every modeller these days have...

It doesn't take me much time to explain a bit that shot (is incredible how certain sofwares are making modellers come to common ways) , much less than me making screenies, model for tut, etc.

I'm gonna make something curious. Say very rough and quickly (now I shouldn't be stopping my work tasks) the steps needed to do in Wings for achieve that. I'm told that package has similar tools in some aspects than Mirai-wings. Indeed silo is told to be an outstanding modelling software.

(hmmmmm..funny, maybe this idea would have been more useful and doable after all)

(Note: I would NOT model that way. SOme steps can be avoided with Wings, some functions are not in Wings, and the opposite)

1) I'd select a vertical edge of the cube. Hit h (or g, the key you configure for edge ring ) and so all vertical edges come selected. Hit "2" so u cut em. Those new verts stay selected, so u can "move", "y axe" drag till you have it that low.
is done in a second.(I explain things in a way they look slow, but as I always say, wings is blazing quick)

2) not sure right now, but u may select (in wings/mirai, select an edge, hit l, so u have selected a full edgeloop) the two front edges, and hit bevel. Also you could select the 3 vertical small edges down there, hit "2" (it cuts) and as in a cut the new verts become selected (it jumps automatically from edge mode to vertex mode) , you now select the two vertex in the sides, and hit c (conect).All the time you can go to menus instead of keys. I just go quicker so.Have my own keys, so it may not coincide with the standard ones in wings. the new edgeloops is done. I'll explain less slowly things as I advance.

3) Now he subdivides. I am not sure I would do so. I prefer always to go the lowest I count as distract me more, and lets me go more free.I often go with large 7 edged faces, to keep things clean. But is just another way. Seems that Silo has a proxy mode like wings. A pitty we don't have yet it be really interactive (it perfoms the action once buton released) You have this in Anim8r, if I am right, and well done. In metasequoia you need to jump to patch mode, with is not very convenient often.

4) must be something in silo, I don get what he does, but seems unimportant.

5) Again, what I'd do in wings for this...perhaps he's beveling a vertex to get the eye cave.Maybe he takes part of the edgeloop in the mouth till almost back of the head (l, and the ctrl+select to unmark bak edges) Some other stuff here would be cutting certain edges, and moving resulting points. there are lots of useful wings tools I am not mentioning (you can model in many ways/operations with that, to reach same point) cutting and conecting, as well as bumping, rotate-scale, lift, etc, but in 5) there's not all those steps yet.

6) Imho since start he's using virtual mirror. In wings there's this. You just model on side, the other gets modelled at same time automatically, as if other hand was doing it. Is extremely useful. Nose: edge selcted in nose are. I'd bevel it, or select the 2 faces and bump, or extrude+cuts+connects, whatever. Many ways, but to get the nose volume.
All the time, since start, I am magnetting. That is like Max softselection+move, but done much quicker than in max. Is like move with a decreasing influence radius. For verts, usually. but also for faces, edges.
So magnets would be used here to shape nose in a breeze.
I could also use my key for free move. In wings you can activate in preferences higlight selection, so I pass the mouse over a vert, hit my move free key, and it moves..Anyway, I prefer magnet. With no radius is like move free. I toggle influence/no influence with just "1" key(in magnet mode), with influence, "+" and "-" for modify radius. To jump into magnet mode, I use "," key.
Needed surely some refining near mouth. well, bevel vertical edges (u may need to colapse verts at extremes) . Also can hit 3 or 2, in the horizontal edges, and then connect. Indeed, that's cleaner.
In fact a way to create a general refined area, in verticals is select all one side horizontals, near the central simetry plane (if he is using virtual mirror) and hit "2", "3", whatever, and hit connect. Just that.

for mouth, I'm often more quick, and just select mouth area and hit "s" to subdivide, but only that part.

after a cut, is usual to "b" (move free in my case) so to position well stuff. As I said, I don't care edgeloops flow yet. In boxmodelling, that's a cosmetic stuf u can do at the end extremely quicly instead of worring in every step about em slowing it all. first proportions, shapes, main volumes.

7)man, mor refining, this get to be more of the same. Of course, there are lots of other tools to use in wings and similar modellers, but I'm in a hurry now.
cut, conect, collapse, disolve, etc.He does worry a bit about edge loops at this stage, though I wouldnt agree.

8) Hey, selecting faces (the notation.That point in midst of the face) is similar to maya one...hehe. Hmm..no time. Burnt it already...well, I'll explain few things from now on, short of time now...grunt.

18) the hole can be made selecting th only edge there's firstly in 17) , and bevel. Then is a matter of the resulting selected loop (actually the resulted beveled) (remember bevel an edge creates kind of hexagon, in the surface) which keeps selected, and refine with cut connect, or any other technique.
then select central faces, and extrude in normal direction, or beter, u select, middle m button to rotate, till is more or less left view, and extrude free inside the head.

24) he makes a hole. That's not possible in wings. Still you could make hole material. So the obj would have exactly that hole. But imho not needed to make the ear. Mayb in silo is needed. Indeed, I think I see..he needs that to create a new face, to fill the hole. Not needed in Wings , you can just delete the edges in that contour (paint select(quicker)hit del key ) and that's it.

For makin the ear then I'd do and extrude of that huge -multiedged face, and then would be a matter of doing some cuts and connects. That's quuick and once having the count on it, is a matter of magneting to get the shape.

I am not explaining vectors and many other things which are the real power of Wings, but would be much longer to explain; there are too many methods.

And have no time. at the end, he subdivides again. Ater that i could reshape a bit with magnets, but imho, the best is not needing that, in box modelling, good thing is make your mind guess the shape before is subdivided, I learnt that, and I'm way quicker than magneting over an already subdivided mesh.

To note that the mouth and near mouth loops have ben done, as well as eyes ones. This gotta be done so for expressions in animation, actuall 95% of character stuff gotta be animated later, in a project.
Anyway, they require you so...

My point is with Wings you can shape the loops at anytime, is more the volume you construct.

oh, eyes are spheres.

A step by step tut of this, would take much time, much more than actual modelling.

Some operations not explained and which I use a lot in my wings modelling:

vectors: modelling with almost every operation with an edge or average of edges, vertices, etc, as direction of operation, selected in same operation, (no workflow stopping) , and also can be used for at same operation even choose a pivot point for it!
havent seen this in any package, yet.
is a real power.

repeat operation. repeats last operation done.

repat with draggin, repeats also same amount draging.

repeat numeric. You can also do numeric operation any moment, start for example moving in x axe direction, hit tab key and type a number.
repeat numeric is new, havent used yet, I suppose it repeats same numeric operation.

smooth. I only subdivide an area.

stablish hard edges. Good of hi res and low res modelling.

bump, intrude, lift(rotate around an axe, often I forget and do with vectors )

tight vertices. (it rounds a selection of vertices.)

twist and othe roperations I don't use...

you can go to vertex mode, face mode, edge mode, object mode with keys (v, f, e...) but I happen in thi scase to prefer the big buttons at top...

edgeloops operations. Selct an edge and hit l. H or G to slect an edge ring.
+ and - to grow decrease a selection, often is good to over pass what you wanna select, as when decrease, it takes exactly what forms a hand, avoinding extra deselection of a lost face. Also good is in the midst of it change to edge (e) or vertex mode, so it often gives you a comples selection you want.

You can select per material applied, "paint" for selecting or marquee selecting.

space deselects all or clicking in certain top bar.

ps: all this is "Wings modelling" . I could not explain without mentioning some of its tools, as on those resides the technical side of character modelling in that software.

As always, is perfectly applied to any other software with similar tools. but the thing is each software has its tools, and unless they're quite similar, then the cleverest method for each is not the same.

step 1 to 2 would be subdivide face ,connect edge and cutface only for the trianglates on sides

next subdivide the mesh then

step 5 to 13
could be dont in 3 main steps with use of merge face and insert for the eye socket's and bump for the nose

then for step 14 could use insert and extude

mouth could have multipul choices between bump , connect extrude ,insert and connect edge

Nendo came with a buch of SCRIPTS which were playable. I watched the Penguin script and was on my way. That's at least another avenue. I think the Nendo demo would run the scripts.
Or it might have been a PDF ... either way ... it was contained in the Nendo distrobution.

What's wrong with the Time-Lapses on the CDROMS ? Can't you slow them down enough ? Is it too jumpy ?

had a link to this fantastic thread given to me today and I've just spent a donkies age reading it all.

I am a big believer in using any tool I want to get a job done. I'm not a BOX modeler, I'm simply a modeler. Some of the principals I use with super-sculpey apply to my digital work and vice versa. To limit ones self to a `style` of modeling would be criminal. If that was true for everyone Ofer Alon would not have spent 5 years creating ZBrush and his amazing ZSpheres.

I am a big fan of point modeling in Lightwave. I learnt to do it from Dan Ablans teachings and it has stood me in good stead for all my polygon modeling. I do find it slow but I also find it precise. I often box-model a head/creature and dislike a portion of the mesh so I delete it and fill it in with a nice point-by-point patchwork.

I am a massive fan of ZBrush and although not released yet the next version brings a lot of the more traditional modeling features to ZSphere modeling (ie. Edge loops).

Edge loops are fine and are very, very important to an animator. However, If you are creating a head study for an Illustration and you are in a position to use 3 million polygons to do it then why worry about Edge loops.

However....understanding the topology of your reference and how and where to run your edgeloops is must with lower poly count meshes. A model that mimics the muscle rings around a mouth will seem all the more real than a mesh with random polygons.

Some of the Mirai timelapse vids (Like Martin Krolls) look like smoke-and-mirrors because you are only seeing the result of the modeling in the perspective window. The models are created in all the other viewports and zoomed in and out as needed. I suspect a time lapse of a point-by-point creation would look really cool if you just watched it appear in the perspective view.

Doctorstopme: I'm writing the box model narrative to my images above. I'll let you have the URL when it's up. It's done in SILO but it will apply to any program with poly tools. and the stage between 2+3 was, as Steve says, a SubDivide command to give me more geommetry.

Fantastic thread. I watch with interest.

southern

Take care everyone. Great thread...awesome info and inspiration to learn more.

MTB

*Edit*

Awe southern beat me..but he is right, martin's vids do look like smoke and mirrors still but the construction is very useful. I too believe in 'use what you much'.

I started working on a head a few days ago. I don't have much time to spare currently so I didn't want anything too complex.
I saved the steps in hopes of making a tutorial sometime, but I don't think I'll have the patience to do it.

I did a quick put together of the steps. Does not look very nice, but I didn't put too much time on making the images fit nicely together.

(click for bigger images)

You can see that I had some of the loops wrong at first so I went through a little redesigning later on.
Not complete, but I hope to complete it soon.

I think it more or less demonstrates the way I model.

Awesome model southern, I've seen it at cgTalk.

Mahlikus-The-Black, thanks for the vids, great help. Nice stuff on your site, btw.

(sorry about the big images)

hey, Glen Southern...

I remember you from Zbrushcentral, I'm not there anymore...I was a Zbrush user.(when i stopped using zb, I stopped going to zbc)

People like you, Ambient Whisper (at Wings3d(I think also at Mirai and cgtalk forums)) , frenchy pilou (at zbc) , Bobo (game art, at Polycount) , JamieF (game artistry forum, at Cg Chat) etc, etc...help keeping motivation on 2d/3d...

[ btw, got nostalgic now and visited zb central...good point on that pencil script...My main reason of stop using zb was the need of write them for a serial each time I reinstall or something. I know..I'm lazy...
That script seems way cool... I draw since was a child, I usually use Pixia, Open canvas and stuff like that to draw...At work used Painter and Adobe. Really nice you added soft and hard pencils. Seeing, at last, a "4b" pencil icon in the screen totally rocks..Oh, and great work with that sculpey thing... ]

Anyone who needs a tutorial to get some one thumbnail to the next is doing self a dis-service. You MUST go through the pain of figuring it out yourself. That's where the learning is. If you really want ALL the hand holding ... Then there is no substitue for a SCRIPT. You can get those with the Nendo demo. I'll try to verify that at lunch time.

OK ... I verified it.

(1) go to www.izware.com/nendo.
(2) download the win95/win98 versions even if you have win2000.
(3) disable OpenGL hardware support on your system by going to Control Panels / displays / settings / advanced or something like that and move the slider to left (none). Yo won't need Hardware acceleration for the scripts/demos.

(4) use the Nendo menu help/how to.
(5) Pick a script. Try the penguin.

Southern: I am thrilled and honored that so experienced a modeler would post here, and furthermore post on this thread. Your insights are invaluable. For myself, I couldn't ever understand the interface of the ZBrush trial and how to use it. It is very reasonably priced, though, and I am definitely interested in learning it (at some point ). Your point about edge loops is also valid - more and more, I am learning that everyone views edge loops in a different way . To be perfectly honest, I think they add a lot of unnecessary polies to a mesh. Here is a skull WIP that I just began recently.

http://doctorstopmo.250free.com/Images/Skull10.jpg

It is all edge looped, and all quads. I did not compromise a hair in making a triangle or an n-gon to conserve polies. I followed every single edge loop out to its end. The final poly count for the low poly cage was about 2000 (I know skulls can be done in significantly less, but I wanted to capture all the details, all the subtle topology, and the little bumps and ridges). I find the pay-off is worth it, though, particularly because my meshes only reach the 10,000 poly cage for the low poly version, and 160,000 for 2 subdivisions. I look forward to your tutorial with interest. I will try to translate it to Anim8or so that it will be of use to the frequenters of this forum.

Mahlikus-the-Black: I got a codec error trying to watch the video - do you know how it is compressed? I look forward to viewing all those video tutorials, though! I appreciate you posting them.

Armenian: I think your images and such say everything I have to say about "our" method of modeling, though I fear we may become dinosaurs - speaking for myself, I am very eager to adopt box modeling techniques for speed purposes. You've got great edge loop flow in your model. I love it! However, I do proceed the way Bob_ITs mentioned.

thanks for the comments and replies.

I'll upload high res versions of the heads in the BOX MODEL image above. But please remember, I didn't post it here it was the second model with SILO and it was posted there first.

I was LEARNING that program and that was day three so there will be errors and I was screen shotting as I went for a bit of fun. If it would help I will do a better one with more grabs but you will NEVER be able to see every cut, split, connect, merge etc.etc..that I do as there are hundreds if not thousands done during a session.

As mentioned, you will have to learn by doing it and finding out what works and what doesn't.

btw, should I be looking into Anim8or as I'm now posting here? I feel a fraud.

Armenian: excellent example.

EDIT:
http://www.southerngfx.co.uk/general/tutorials/tutorial.htm

hope this helps in some small way

The hand-holding comment was not for you Dr. As far as your potential Dr, Based on what I've seen you do with Anim8or, you should be doing models as nice as Southerns. That's where I picture you headed. But quite honestly ... you have all your eggs in one basket right now and it's not helping you. I find almost without exception that the best modellers on the net have tried AND excelled (at least temporarily) at many 3D approachs and apps. Look at Southern's post. Look at UglyTrolls posts. These are just two guys ... but the list really goes on and on.

I've actually tried the poly by poly approach in my book and spent maybe 3 - 4 months there ... I consider NURBS to be almost isomorphic to poly-by-poly and I was a big Rhino modeller before becoming a Box modeller. Drawing the spline segement one-by-one and then tweeking the control weights in my book is very much akin to poly-by-poly.

Doctor ... have you run the Nendo Penguin script yet ?

quote:

---

you will NEVER be able to see every cut, split, connect, merge etc.etc..that I do as there are hundreds if not thousands done during a session.

---

This is very true.

Southern, I don't think is a bad thing to post about other modeller methods, I think is what is this thread about, surely we already talked about a lot of packages here already.

(I edited-deleted one of mine in this thread due to I posted too many artwork of my own, but there I talked about Amorphium, organica and much others)

But anyway, I'm not a moderator, and I tend to think of speech in a very free manner, if respectful as has been...

I don't think there should be a problem, but this another of my opinions..

Also, as surely you also think, I think he'll find useful if it's some tips, key-comments, than huge tuts. Doing a very step by step tut can take eons. I think that way...indeed, one of the reasons I didnt do the box modelling tut..

I yet gotta see a huge step by step modelling tut that I like in the net...Joan of arc (and what a pain to do) maybe, but again, that's not my style in modelling.

quote:

---

Look at Southern's post. Look at UglyTrolls posts. These are just two guys ...

---

Indeed, I think I deleted also the packages I already used...I'll post briefly the list (anyway, i never remember it entirely.. )

- Softy3d (metashapes, metaballs)
- Organica (Metaballs and shapes. Made one human, anatomically detailed)
- Amorphium (clay-like modelling)
- Spatch/hamapatch, spline modelling, very similar to your point modelling.
- Quake Modeller, some stuff. Pure point modelling.
- Metasequoia: metaballs, pacthes modelling, polygon modelling in a similar way of milkshape, but also wth Poser/LW magnets, 3d painting, and some uv mapping. Some stuff like max edit mesh.
- Max edit poly and edit mesh.
- Zbrush (but a novice. Only some stuff. And learnt a bit zspheres, then I left.)
- Wings, my life saver. It has nendo and mirai's methods, and some else.
-Tried hard maya 5 at work, but at last didn't suit me, and continue using max and wings.
-Lately having a grip of Art of Illussion, as well as Blender.

- In uvmapping, Supermapper, Uvmapper classic, Lithunwrap, Max UVW, lately and happily, Ultimate Unwrap.

-In 3d painting, tried and purchased Zbrush (sorry, glen) but its 3d painting did not fit me. Graffiti, Meshpaint demo. handled a Painter 3d at a Poser user friend of mine's home. finally wasted all the bucks in Deep Paint3d, after a very hard study, page by page of the tutorials and docs available at the site (a huge lot)

-in animation, quite less, for now Character Fx (done animation sets with it) , Blender (lately) , character studio 4.1 ( *cough* professionally *cough* )
Is incredibly important to understand somethings to at least see your mesh animated by someone...and if you gotta be the guy to animate it (at least game models) then is such a pain to see you need to redo many joints..You learn so to model in other way. Also learn that even in hi res you need to not waste polies...or any 3d card would be able to move your scenes...
Oh, also tried and did animations in anim8or. Animated an enemy for a friends rendered graphics engine. But the result was bad -only for my fault in that case. made some tests for facial animation with Anim8or.this worked.

And all this to tell you that I yet don't consider a method better than other for everybody. For me, in my case, it's clear, it's Wings's.

For me, what I found was :

- metaballs : not quite useful for mid/low game models. Metareyes metashapes Max plugin, are said to be outstanding though.
can be used. Imho yet prefer subdivisions, can't explain well, but besides dealing with lower meshes, the hi output I have more control over it with subdivisions (or box modelling, or Mirai's, how you want)

-Spline (did objects with hamapatch, some heads.Never tried Animation Master, no demo.)
modelling, a problem with creases sometime, and refining detail is slower for me than with a wings like aproach.

-point to point (that is, with mesh edges and points instead splines) did so with metasequoia a bit. Good for certain details (cloth straps) , but doing it all even when in meta that's very flexible, would have been a pain.

-Amorphium. I really like it's modifying ove rmesh. I have not regreted its purchase, finally. It rocks for creating veins, bumps, cracks, etc...Like Zbrush in that field.
But lacks the constructing posibilities of Wings or Zspheres. let's call it "clay modelling" It produces some mesh smudging, like in some cases in Zbrush, and I prefer it to not happen...
Its decimate per area, as well as subdivide per area rocks. It converts to triangles, and that's bad.

- Max edit mesh,edit poly quite cool. Even more with Meshtool script (wich funny, that's put some Mirai like funcionality in modelling. there are other scripts that add other of those commands )
Still I miss speed in flow of Wings, as well as what I find in Meta and Wings: as I put a point in space, or make a movement, it makes better "guessing" than Max...

Also, the rotation...midlle button for rotate like in AOI (well it has a good navigation system, may not be exactly that way), Blender, Metasequoia or Wings, is such a workflow speed up thing.

There's no white or black only...

so, I even have to think you may be right this time. I just don't know, but I model so many times quicker with Wings than with any other I used, that I don't feel the need on try much many more things (aoi and blender, perhaps) in modelling.

More worried in Animation, uvmapping, those always burn too much hours for my liking, compared to what it takes me to model.

http://prymevalgraphics.com/Animations/Modeling-Aids/
File is Proper-BoxModeled-Cube.avi

Take care.

Yet, I chose to attempt to follow it in attempt to better understand loops. The only other real model I've done on my own was mostly point edit, though it did have nice looping from what I've previeously learned using a different approach.

Okay, I am going to give box modeling "a fair shake" as Mark would say. The skull was done using my point modeling methodology; the rest shall be done with box modeling/extrusion techniques. Now, I am not an experienced "boxer," so helpful feedback on methodology would be appreciated.

Just started on the vertebrae. Here's a wire, for those interested:

http://www.cslab.uky.edu/~lteri2/DoctorStopMo/SkeletonWire1.bmp