Anim8or Community

General Category => Ongoing Anim8or Development => Topic started by: Steve on June 08, 2020, 06:52:45 pm

Title: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 08, 2020, 06:52:45 pm
With Build 1383 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1383.zip) Anim8or has a new lip sync track to help add voice. More instructions to come in a few minutes.

Note: I updated the link to 1383 which fixes #101-036 - Anim8or crashes when reading a project that references non existent sounds.

How to use the Lip Sync track to a scene:

1. Start with an Object or Figure that has several Morph Targets that represent different speech phonemes (sounds like "AYE", "OOO", "MMM"). Give them a one letter name or the lip sync track will tend to get jumbled-up.
2. In the Scene editor, add one or more sounds. This creates a sound track.
3. Add the Object or Figure to the scene.
4. Use the Edit->EditPhonemeTrack menu command to add a lip-sync track to the EObject or EFigure. This will appear next to the sound wave in the sound window.
5. Double click on a frame in the lip-sync track to add a phoneme morph.

Existing morphs that conflict with the ones you add in the lip-sync track will be deleted, but you can still use them in other frames. All morphs that are not added to the track are not affected.

This example uses only 4 lip shapes, roughly for sounds A, O, M and N.



You can improve the quality with more shapes. For example, the very talented animator and teacher Preston Blair created a great scheme using 10 different shapes. Here is one description: http://www.garycmartin.com/mouth_shapes.html (http://www.garycmartin.com/mouth_shapes.html)

I've attached a the project for this video. You can get the .WAV sound file here (http://www.anim8or.com/misc/Anim8orNowHasSound_Bianca.wav). When you load the project, switch to the scene editor, double click on the small blank square in sound track at frame 5 and load the sound file.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: captaindrewi on June 09, 2020, 09:35:37 am
1382 crashes when i try and load the example lip sync.an8 :o
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 09, 2020, 10:11:49 am
It looks like it crashes when trying to load the sound file. The directory that is in the project file doesn't exist. I'll see if I can get a fix out quickly.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 09, 2020, 10:21:57 am
i  made a test file with a ball and simple morphs in build 1382, and its looking good, and working as described
  Will use it more and get back with more feedback, but, so far so good.
 Nice one steve  (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 09, 2020, 02:11:37 pm
Update: Build 1383 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1383.zip) should fix the crash reported by captaindrewi above. When you load the project, switch to the scene editor, double click on the small blank square in sound track at frame 5 and load the sound file.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 12, 2020, 07:50:47 am
So far so good
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: dode1 on June 12, 2020, 06:41:10 pm
Perfect! ;D
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 13, 2020, 02:29:02 am
Maybe a zoom could work something like this?
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSJmtDPk/zoom.gif)

 EDIT. I didn't put the phoneme track in there, but it should be. (https://i.postimg.cc/NFQscSY6/Winkwhite.gif)


Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Nehemiah Thomas on June 13, 2020, 04:03:10 am
Hi! anim8or member congratulation for greater job. sorry there any way to solve the problem on anim8or build release 1383 because scene can't import figure
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2020, 10:15:27 am
johnar Interesting idea, or maybe some other way to widen frames without limiting the active range. I'm working on some other ways to show longer names as well.

Nehemiah Thomas Yikes! This has been broken for a while. Importing scenes with figures can also crash. I'll get a fix out for this!

#101-039 - Import scenes with figures doesn't include figure; can crash.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 13, 2020, 10:22:08 am
 EDIT: Thanks for your reply steve

yes, i also had trouble import figure to scene..
 But i also have a bug to report. 

  'Anim8or forgetting edited phoneme keys'

 I used the phoneme track and set some morphs for the .wav file 'anim8or'
 These are just default, (0 and 1 value) morph keys, with no editing of morph value or positions.
 (https://i.postimg.cc/Bn7Ym8Hx/1sync1-Default.jpg)

 and these are the results. (remember .gif images play slower than film)
 (https://i.postimg.cc/RC1gjpwC/2keys-bad.gif)


  Then i edited the keys as below. I used a variety of values, as seen in the graph editor, and moved the 2 keys, each side of the center key(s), away 1 frame from the center key(s).
 ie: from this: ---  to this: - - -
(https://i.postimg.cc/50BmWjYK/3edited.jpg)

 and this is the result. (remember .gif images play slower than film)
 (https://i.postimg.cc/RhPKvtMd/4keys-good.gif)


  And heres the bug.
 after rendering the edited scene, i was left with this.
 (https://i.postimg.cc/8cnJ2VHn/5after-render.jpg)
 The morph values had returned to 0 and 1, and extra 0 keys were added into the gaps which i had made. (https://i.postimg.cc/nrGkPjcF/Not-Happy-W.gif)


In regards to the assigned default positions of the morph keys, when set with the phoneme track.
 Three keys in a row, side by side, with values of 0-1-0, will always cause a 'popping' effect, which is shown in the first 'mouth' .gif.
 To stop that, there needs to be, at least, one free frame between each key. As shown in the 2nd 'mouth' .gif.  (no popping).

 Is it possible to make that the default?
 so: - - -  instead of ---?

 Here's an afterthought, which would be really, really cool, and allow you to see at a glance where the 'value' key is.
 (https://i.postimg.cc/NFyfr26p/6edited-keydot.jpg)

 Often when tweaking phoneme morphs, the positions and number of keys can change. eg; when wanting to hold the mouth shut for 2 or 3 frames mmmore, or the sounds being longer than the normal 0-1-0. The coloured dots would show easily which is the initial 'value' key, which would make it much easier to keep track of the keys.
  (and it looks soooo cool).  (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)

Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2020, 12:28:35 pm
The phoneme track clears out any keys that are: 1) within +/- 1 frame something in the phoneme track, and 2) are used in the phoneme track. Then the keys form the track are added.

This poses several design issues:

A) Values other that 1.0 and 0.0 are needed.
B) Overlapping phonemes could be useful where one is transitioning into the other.
C) What is the best way to handle other, user added keys that conflict with phoneme keys?

Additionally, it would be nice to support:

D) Longer phoneme names.
E) Copy/paste in the phoneme track.
F) Clicking on the graph editor should edit phoneme keys accordingly.
G) Different colors will definitely help in the graph editor and the key markings.

I have work in progress for A and B and plan on addressing E shortly after.

Note: you can make phonemes longer than one frame in the dialog where you add a phoneme to the track.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 14, 2020, 06:08:52 am
Hi steve.
 Some thoughts on A, B and C.
 D, F and G are sounding good.
 E might be related to thoughts further below.


Quote
The phoneme track clears out any keys that are: 1) within +/- 1 frame something in the phoneme track, and 2) are used in the phoneme track. Then the keys form the track are added.
This poses several design issues:

 Is the phoneme track leaning towards being a little too 'involved' with the phoneme keys manually inserted by the user into the time track.?   please read further...


Quote
C) What is the best way to handle other, user added keys that conflict with phoneme keys?


 I think they need to behave 'as one' as much as possible, but with absolute precedence given to 'user defined' keys. Don't allow 'Lip sync tool' added morphs/keys to change any already existing keys. (except, maybe, to overwrite if it lands on an existing key)


 Lip sync tool is excellent to 'mark' which shape goes where and when.
 Anim8or lip sync tool is doing that now, which is a huge help.
 
 If it can actually add the key(s) as well, then yes, that is very good, but guaranteed it will need tweaking keys, (hooray graph editor), and 'moving keys', here and there. to get it right.
 
 I don't believe there is any automatic lipsync software that can get it looking as natural as keying manually.
 For a 'convincing, life like' lip sync, you will always need to be able to edit keys. in the timetrack, and graph editor.

 

 I would like to talk about popping again, sorry. but its relevant to:
 
Quote
A) Values other that 1.0 and 0.0 are needed.


 So, when keys are added to the timeframe, using the lipsync tool,are they not added as just ordinary keys? 'off(0)-on(1)-off(0)'
 To avoid popping, there will need to be 1 frame between the first 'off(0)' and the 'on(1)'
 If this frame is left empty, won't it just travel at a natural strength/curve value, as do ordinary  strength values change between 1 key frame value and another?

Quote
Note: you can make phonemes longer than one frame in the dialog where you add a phoneme to the track

 Yes, that holds the morph at 1, but again, there needs to be an empty frame at the end, between the 1 value and the 0 value, if you want to eliminate the popping.

 With the lipsync tool, I honestly believe that if you can add a default keyframe pattern. of:
 '0 - empty frame - 1 - (held if lengthened in the dialog) -1- empty frame - 0',
 then it will work better than any lip sync apps i've seen.

 The keys should be added as ordinary keys, and not even necessarilly 'physically' connected to the Letter in the phoneme track, once the phoneme, (and 3 keys), have been added.
 (maybe the main value key can still have a relationship with the phoneme track letter.  but only to the point of deleting, if the key is deleted from the track. (and vice versa?),
 
 
Quote
B) Overlapping phonemes could be useful where one is transitioning into the other.
Absolutley. And without any real physical connection between phoneme track and phoneme key, after the 3 keys are added, could that not then allow overlapping transitions, because they're just more keys on a seperate track,  editable and readable as any other overlapping morph keys?


 


Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 17, 2020, 06:57:48 am
(https://ibb.co/pd3SdGs)

(https://ibb.co/5Y8N1QJ)

 Firstly thank you Steve for the new sound builds, the second sound build
 proved to be very interesting. My test character had 4 phoneme mouth morph
targets  and I recorded my voice with audacity free software, I then added
the sound track. Then from the drop down edit menu, I selected  edit phoneme track and I selected my test character head. I then played my
sound track in the scene editor and paused it at the time frame I wanted the
mouth to move. At this point I clicked in the phoneme track and selected the
mouth shape to match the sound, in this case it an O sound. See picture 1.
Anim8or produces a default value of 1 (which you can change) it also develops a default value of 0 on the key frames before and after your selected frame. This is very good and helps to save time, see picture 2.
 Can we play the sound track at a slower speed? It was difficult to select the exact area of the sound wave because it played at normal speed, which proved to be very tricky.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 18, 2020, 05:48:19 am
(https://ibb.co/Xy57JdW)
(https://ibb.co/VH0QbcZ)
Steve has done  wonderful work with the creation of the phoneme track. Please review the papagayo you-tube tutorial below.
At 3.17 minutes into the video he scrubs along the soundtrack and you can hear the broken down words and phonetic sounds.
Can this scrub/scrolling of the wave track be included into anim8or? ???

Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 18, 2020, 05:55:49 am
Also I am having difficulties with my "img" coding, they are not showing up in the forum, my pictures where originally  posted to this website imgbb.com, then I use this at the start of the address  (http://and this at the end).
The result is this and it does not show up in the anim80r forum img]https://ibb.co/VH0QbcZ[/img]
Can anybody help? ???
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 18, 2020, 03:51:38 pm
I think you have to have an image extension on the URL: .gif .jpg .png
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2020, 03:02:44 pm
ianross Papagayo looks pretty nice. It shouldn't be too hard to incorporate their phoneme output into Anim8or.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 20, 2020, 12:59:32 am
Is this the same Papagayo first posted here by nero, maybe 4-5 years ago? (possibly more like 10 years ago)

( I have a feeling he may have done the original programming.............(?))


ianross i notice on your image coding example that you're also missing the '[' at the beginning of ' img]https://ibb.co/VH0QbcZ[/img]
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 21, 2020, 10:14:46 am
Hi Steve, can the ".dat"  export file from papagayo, can a script be written for anim8or to
interpret this for morph targets? would it work in the phoneme track?
The dat file can be read in note pad.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on June 21, 2020, 10:18:31 am
(https://ibb.co/Xy57JdW)
Hi Johnar what file sharing website do you use? The brackets are in place>
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 21, 2020, 11:32:14 am
ianross: I 'm going to add built in import for papagayo .dat files.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Kevin Gales on June 21, 2020, 03:54:40 pm
ianross: I 'm going to add built in import for papagayo .dat files.
Yeah do that..the dat file contains plain text and pretty straightfoward
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 21, 2020, 11:49:51 pm
ianross Hi.
 I use postimage.org. They're really good.
 just copy the 'direct link' they give you, paste here, select, and then click the little 'insert image'  button, below the 'B', above the 'reply to topic' box.

It puts  [/img]   at the end of the link  and  [img]    at the begining. 
 I  noticed your first '[' was missing in your example above.
 and yes, the link provided by postimage has  a file extension.  (.jpg)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 29, 2020, 07:16:19 pm
johnar, try out Build 1385 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1385.zip). You can change the number of frames leading into and trailing a morph so that they don't pop, and can set the strengths of the start and end. I also marked the phoneme keys in color (nice suggestion!).

Also when you modify the graph editor keys the phoneme references are updated accordingly( instead of getting lost when you saved the file).
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on June 30, 2020, 09:20:32 am
Hi steve.
 Just a quick note to let you know i've downloaded 1385 and have only had time for a quick look so far. I'll have some more feedback within the next couple of days, but for now, all i can really say is ---FAN TASTIC----
 A great variety of options now in the Phoneme Editor, have tried just a few different mixtures of settings, and so far all is looking really good.
 A great amount of control for setting initial phoneme keys. Gotta say that's quite outstanding. Something quite special. Well done.
 Sorry i don't have time for a closer look right now, but can't wait to take it for a longer spin. Exciting stuff steve, looking really, really good.

 One thing.
 When deleting a phoneme key, the first and last/outside keys aren't deleting.
 (the '0' keys).
 When you save the file, close it and re-open it, then the outside keys have gone.
 And
Quote
modified key values are saved
. (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)

 Gotta go for now.
 Magic stuff steve(https://i.postimg.cc/mr96SrMD/Thumbs-Up-W1.gif)
.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on June 30, 2020, 10:22:00 am
Thanks, johnar! I'll fix the undeleted keys in the next build.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 03, 2020, 05:12:16 am
Hi again steve.
 I'm not finding any problems here, except for that keys not deleting thing.
(thanks for the coming fix)

One thing i should mention.
 A tip for anyone using the phoneme track, which is probably best as a 'rule' for editing phoneme keys. (Unless this is something that you decide is worth fixing. But it's not broken, so this 'rule/tip' is probably all thats really needed)
 I'll try to explain.
 I set a phoneme key and have the 'fade' period set to (eg) 4. Later, when 'fine tuning/tweaking the keys. that key needs to be moved to (eg) 5. (or 6 or 2 or whatever).

 The rule would be, "when editing phoneme keys, changing the length, lead, or fade value should be done within the phoneme key editor".
 Why?
 Initially, i wanted to extend the fade key value from 4 to 6. or 'move that key 2 frames further along the track. So i just Ctrl-X that key, and paste it 2 frames further along the time track.
 It works, of course, but you lose the blue color from the key. After a bit of similar editing, the time track is left with an 'apparently' random smattering of blue keys, Which sort've defeats the purpose of coloring the phoneme keys in the first place.
 Maybe not necessarily a rule, but at least a tip.
 (unless you think its worth looking into)
.

 Apart from that, i think what we've got right now is absolutely cool, functional and practical. Capable of far better results than can be expected from any 'automatic lip-sync app or function'.
 Having this 'hands on' ability to set the keys 'placement and values' easilly and at the first instance, also makes things a whole lot easier when fine tuning later on.
 I have experimented with 'automatic lip-sync software and I'm totally confident that anim8or has the beginning of something far superior than anything i've seen.
 I say 'the begining of something', because, as we know, the hardest part of lipsyncing is putting the phoneme in the right frame at the right time.
 Scrubbing is probably what most people look for, and then some kind of 'zooming in' or 'magnifying', to have a closer look at where we think the sound is actually made.
 As we are now, we can select an area of the waveform and play it. That actually does work quite well and, with practice, the timing can be set very closely, if not spot on. (some waveforms are easier to read than some others).

 I've mentioned 'arrowkey scrubbing' If scrubbing is used for finetuning of phoneme placement, then i would say that 'arrow key scrubbing' is for even finer tuning. (more exact placing). If you can advance 1, or 2, frames at a time, with sound 'on', then synchronizing can be 'exact', and you can't get any closer than that.  (https://i.postimg.cc/NFQscSY6/Winkwhite.gif)

 Think i've done my rave for now. (https://i.postimg.cc/3wQTgV6g/Coolwhite.jpg)
 Great job steve.
 Cuppa tea (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)

EDIT sorry for my, often, long winded, roundabout way of saying things sometimes.
 I realise now that perhaps what i could have said was 'Is there any way the phoneme keys can retain their color after being cut/copied and pasted'? (https://i.postimg.cc/Dfx4BP7W/Rolleyeswhite.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 03, 2020, 01:02:10 pm
Thanks for pointing out the copy-pasting keys behavior. I'll see if I can make this alter the phoneme properly.

I'm also thinking about allowing the phonemes to be modified directly in the phoneme track. It takes a bit of experimenting to see what works smoothly.

Then there are issues with overlapping lead/tails of two adjacent instances of the same phoneme. Currently I simply add all the keys which can result in strange behavior. I haven't figured out a good way to handle this yet.

I've been working on scrubbing + sound. My first try was awful since I don't have the control I need using MCI commands. I'm now trying making sound clip files on the fly and hope that's responsive enough.

Zooming + multiple tracks are also possibilities - but I first have a lot of learning to do on converting sampling rates and filtering or everything will be limited to a single sampling rate for each scene :'( (like sound output to AVI's is now limited).
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 05, 2020, 01:16:39 am
Quote
I'm also thinking about allowing the phonemes to be modified directly in the phoneme track. It takes a bit of experimenting to see what works smoothly.

 Seems to me that phonemes can already be edited directly in the P.track editor, and along with the graph editor, thats pretty well taken care of. (for me anyway). So that's interesting


Quote
Then there are issues with overlapping lead/tails of two adjacent instances of the same phoneme. Currently I simply add all the keys which can result in strange behavior. I haven't figured out a good way to handle this yet.

I'm trying to think of an occasion where i've ever needed to overlap the same phoneme keys, of the same name, in the timetrack.
  Very rarely.
 Perhaps a warning, like you get when adding keys to a sequence in Scene mode.?
 "you are about to overlap an existing phoneme of the same name, which will delete (the value) of the already existing phoneme key" 
'OK'  'CANCEL'
 Or maybe, rather than delete the existing key, the new one is added to the nearest frame possible after the existing one(s); (with a warning and OK/Cancel option)

Quote
I'm now trying making sound clip files on the fly and hope that's responsive enough.

 wow, that sounds really interesting.

Quote
Zooming + multiple tracks are also possibilities - but I first have a lot of learning to do on converting sampling rates and filtering or everything will be limited to a single sampling rate for each scene :'( (like sound output to AVI's is now limited)

May the force be with you steve.

 Personally, "being limited to a single sampling rate for each scene" isn't the end of the world. Its a small ask that the user limit .wav files to the same sampling rate per scene. (44.1kHz being standard)
 just my personal opinion tho.
 On the other hand, i can see how it could be important to handle different sampling rates

 Just know that, so far, everything 'Anim8or re lipsync' is coming along just dandy. Having lipsync abilities in Anim8or is already a thing of beauty.
Nice one steve
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 05, 2020, 11:43:35 am
Regarding sampling rates, there are tons of free sound effects and such available, but they have different rates. It'd be easier to use then if you didn't have to do the conversions. Besides, learning a bit of new math ain't all that bad (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 05, 2020, 07:00:41 pm
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr96SrMD/Thumbs-Up-W1.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 07, 2020, 06:52:41 pm
johnal I've run into another issue with copy/pasting phoneme blue keys. They aren't independent. Each phoneme starts and ends with a 0 key on either side on the key.

So what does it mean to copy a phoneme key? What I propose is:

1. Copying only a zero key doesn't really mean anything. Ignore it when this happens.
2. Copying only one non-zero key is pasted as a one frame phoneme, with a default 2 frame lead and 2 frame tail if those aren't also selected.
3. Copying all or parts of multiple keys treats each key independently according to these rules.

I realize that this is a bit confusing but I haven't been able to come up with a better solution. Any ideas?

BTW I have scrubbing working for the arrow keys and scrubbing. It plays single frames so kind of stutters. I'm trying different ways the make the scrubbing sound smoother. (But scrubbing backwards will always stutter since I cant play the sound in reverse.)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 07, 2020, 10:46:00 pm
 Steve.
 Am thinking of options re copying phoneme keys. Will get back to you on that in a day.

 re scrubbing....awesome.
 re stuttering, I tried to upload a zip with a video in it of play option stuff in magpie pro just for interest and comparrison sake. Unfortunately too large for attachment so have emailed it to you.

EDIT: Sorry i got rushed there steve. After checking the video, the sound is pretty bad,
 I shouldve made it a bit shorter to cut down on size and audio quality.
  Although the sound quality is bad, i just wanted to give you an example of what it sounds like frame by frame in other audio/lip sync software, as maybe a sort of comparrison thing.
 It does sound sort've 'stuttery' anyway, being the nature of 1 frame of sound.
 But thats probably not the 'stuttering' you were meaning anyway.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 08, 2020, 08:24:12 am
Quote
1. Copying only a zero key doesn't really mean anything. Ignore it when this happens.
2. Copying only one non-zero key is pasted as a one frame phoneme, with a default 2 frame lead and 2 frame tail if those aren't also selected.
3. Copying all or parts of multiple keys treats each key independently according to these rules.

I realize that this is a bit confusing but I haven't been able to come up with a better solution. Any ideas?

Yes i think i see the problem, as explained in number 3.

 Keeping in mind that a copied non-zero key is pasted with a default lead and tail key, then it makes sense that this scenario will always cause issues if overlapping occurs.
 The problem has potential to become 'overwhelmingly confusing' when "Copying all or parts of multiple keys"
Two possible solutions.
 
1) So far, the easiest solution i can see to this is to not allow overlapping.

 Then, how would this work, when applied to "Copying all or parts of multiple keys"
 If existing keys are 'deleted if overlapped', including any 0 keys, would that then 'clear the way' for the 'non-zero and its default lead and tail keys'?

  Keep in mind that, in my experience at least, when animating lipsync manually, the chances of ever 'needing' to 'overlap the same phoneme key' in the timetrack is .........never (?)........

 As mentioned earlier, a warning to the user that 'keys will overlap and affected existing keys will be deleted', would work.

 So, to clarify, one possible solution that i can see at this point, is to:
 'Not allow overlapping, and if overlapping is going to occur, delete any existing keys from the timetrack that will be overlapped'

 Would that work?

EDit:
 Possible solution 2} If copying a 'block' of phoneme keys, to repeat further along the timetrack, causes problems when 'pasting'  due to phoneme key 'rules' then would it be possible to somehow change those phoneme keys to ordinary keys, as is done when overlapping/adding keys into a sequence, in scene mode? Then the keys to copy would just be ordinary keys, and the phoneme key rules would not apply
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 09, 2020, 09:18:11 am
Steve
Still thinking about copying phoneme keys.
 Possible solution number 3, and i think this one might be my favourite so far.

I guess the thing is, do you want the user to:
 1) 'use' the timetrack, along with the the phoneme key track/editor, or
 2) be able to create credible lipsync using only the phoneme key track/editor.
 (and graph editor in both cases)

 My vote would go for 1. (tho i think this possible solution caters for both 1 and 2.)
 The 'timetrack and keying' setup in Anim8or is excellent, and simple to use. Animation requires a knowledge of keying, so it's a good thing to learn a little bit about using keyframes. (even if you only want to do lipsyncing).

 With that in mind, maybe the phoneme keys need to be a bit more flexible somehow.
 What if: Set a Ph.Key by double clicking on the track. Blue phoneme keys can be edited using the PhKey editor and graph editor. (as it is now)
And then, later,  you can double click the name in the phkey track, and change values and settings in the editor, to change the blue keys in the track. (as you can now)

 Now, what if, any phoneme key manipulations done in the timetrack, or graph editor Cancelled all connection with the phoneme key editor. Those keys, (lead, Value and Tail), would lose their blue status, and the name in the phkey track could turn red, to show its disconnected from any keys.
(Double clicking on a red name in the phoneme track would say that there are no keys connected in the timetrack, and an option to leave or 'delete' the phoneme name)

  Once keys are disconnected from the phoneme key editor, they'll be normal keys, and will be free to copy, cut and paste until the cows come home.

 So, Initial phoneme keys can still be set, and edited, through the phoneme key track and editor,  and would be capable of producing credible lipsync using only them.
  More advanced tweaking and manipulation initiated through the time track, including being cut or copied, is still possible as well, if required.
 Could be the best of both worlds, and really pretty straight forward.

 re the graph editor. If the phoneme key editor is open, the blue key values can be edited in the graph editor. (as it is now)
 But if the phkey editor is not open, and the key has been selected through the timetrack or graph editor independently from the phoneme key editor, then that would warrant 'disconnection'.
 Does any of this have potential?

 


Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 09, 2020, 06:32:27 pm
johnar: give build 1386 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1386.zip) a try. I added sound when scrubbing and it seems fairly good. (https://www.anim8or.com/em/johnar/biggrinnW.gif)

I also fixed a very old issue: the different subdivision levels for working and final views never worked. So for subdivision objects you can set a low number, such as 2, for editing and a higher one, such as 3 or 4, for the rendered images. This can really help the responsiveness with sound and larger models.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 10, 2020, 01:36:27 am
 1386 Theres no phonemes showing in the morph section of the phoneme editor.
 Oops. must've forgot to reconnect that wire.  ;)

 Excellent news that the scrubbing is working out. That's awesome. Looking fwd to checking it out.
  And Well done fixing the old subdivision levels, therefore helping responsiveness with sound, (and larger models).
 Good thinking. (https://i.postimg.cc/6QhpTB37/Smile-Blnkwhite.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Nehemiah Thomas on July 10, 2020, 09:00:14 am
Hi, congratulation for build 1386 there's some problems
1. subdivision skinning object not working at sequence and scene
2. crash on image and video rendering

Good working team for anim8or build 1386
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 10, 2020, 09:40:29 am
Skinning is broken? Rats! I know I'd break something. It was a lot of changes. I'll get right on it.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Kevin Gales on July 11, 2020, 12:39:05 pm
Scrubbing...pretty sweet 😁
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 11, 2020, 06:59:13 pm
Hi steve

 Seems like theres no phonemes showing in the morph section of the phoneme editor for figures

 Its working for objects, so i got to try the scrubbing.
 Awesome. Actually clearer than the software i've been using, and super responsive.
 Really awesome.

EDIT: woohoo. (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)

 Now that i'm getting some time in, i'm seeing how much work you've done, and how well it's coming along.
 I'm blown away steve, you're a champion!. (https://i.postimg.cc/mr96SrMD/Thumbs-Up-W1.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mr96SrMD/Thumbs-Up-W1.gif)(https://i.postimg.cc/mr96SrMD/Thumbs-Up-W1.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 12, 2020, 01:51:26 pm
johnar, I can add a phoneme track and phonemes to figures. Do you have a simple example that shows the problem? (There is a little bug that when you delete a figure's phoneme the two blue zero keys aren't deleted.)

I almost have the skinning bug fixed. Too many cases!!

(And thanks for the nice comments (https://www.anim8or.com/em/johnar/biggrinnW.gif))
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 12, 2020, 08:30:33 pm
 OK build 1387 (http://www.anim8or.com/download/preview/files/animcl1387.zip) should fix the skinning problem :)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 12, 2020, 10:24:54 pm
 Some good news steve,
 small misunderstanding.
 By phoneme not showing for figures, i was meaning:
In the phoneme  editor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXcTWxW9/F1.jpg)
 When clicking on arrow to show morphs, theres nothing showing. (figure is loaded)
Like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsdfQhxD/F2.jpg)

 But, good news is, its fixed in 1387!
 So all is good.
 Will post back later, i,ve got some more feedback etc, but not at home right now.
 Just wanted to clarify the 'phoneme and figures' thing.
 All good now. (better than good actually)
 Thanks. (https://i.postimg.cc/6QhpTB37/Smile-Blnkwhite.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 14, 2020, 05:28:58 am
Quote
(There is a little bug that when you delete a figure's phoneme the two blue zero keys aren't deleted.)
well, i'm not seeing that any more.
 In fact, everything seems to be working just fine. Even cutting, copying and pasting doesn't seem to cause any problems. I'll let you know if something comes up, but so far everything seems 'just dandy'  (https://i.postimg.cc/QN9f3CVd/biggrinn-W.gif)


I wanted to test the lipsync tool against  my statement that "Using only the phoneme and graph editor", to create keys, "could produce credible lipsync."

 So here's a  short clip using the phoneme track editor, scrubbing, and graph editor only. No pen and paper,  (https://i.postimg.cc/NFQscSY6/Winkwhite.gif), and no timetrack editing/tweaking or polishing.
  The speech is fast, which can be difficult to time properly at the best of times, so it's a good test for the lipsync setup in anim8or.
 Remember this is just the placing of keys, and value adjustment with graph editor, and no tweaking/polishing at all.
 (its short and fast, so repeats 3 times)
thecolclough sorry, top teeth should not be moving. Am going to make a new character that will 'stick to the  rules'


 This short clip is mostly a mixture of 'mouth open' and 'mouth closed' phonemes. I think this test shows that lipsyncing fast speech can be accomplished by using no less than the default spacing of 2, for lead and tail keys. and without  overlaping any of the same phoneme keys.
 This is really good news.
 Fast speech is normally the hardest lipsync to get right. (it throws auto-lipsync software/apps into a 'flapping, popping' spin, and the time required to tidy it up, if possible, would have been better spent, imho,  manually laying down the initial phoneme keys in the right place at the beginning.)

The 'Lipsync tool(s)', in Anim8or, are seriously awesome.
 Not sure what other plans you have steve, but I would already give Anim8or a 10 out of 10 for simplicity and capability in creating credible lipsync.

Magic stuff.

 Bye bye Magpie. (https://i.postimg.cc/7hdcqTrg/grinwave-W.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on July 14, 2020, 07:47:17 am
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKn8M8Tk/works-great.jpg)


    Firstly thank you Steve for the new sound build, it works great and it very easy to add morph targets while scrubbing the sound bar along. Also  I like the way the morph targets names expand out when you click on them.
I agree with Johnar this is the easiest way to add sound to a talking head.
Also thank you Johnar for the postimage.org  advise.
This is wonderful, thank you Steve.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: ianross on July 14, 2020, 08:59:51 am
Alter Ego is a free vocal synthesizer.

It is specially tailored for musical needs simply type in your lyrics, and then play on your MIDI keyboard. Its a true synthesizer, the sound can be extensively modified for easy and expressive performances.




Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: davdud101 on July 14, 2020, 03:50:46 pm
Alter Ego is a free vocal synthesizer.

It is specially tailored for musical needs simply type in your lyrics, and then play on your MIDI keyboard. Its a true synthesizer, the sound can be extensively modified for easy and expressive performances.


But I might redownload and try again.






I will have to admit - I gave it a try a while back (big into music production for almost a decade) - I couldn't figure it out at ALL... admittedly I didn't try any tutorials or anything. But it doesn't seem very tailored to the casual user who just wants to dip their toe in speech/vocal synthesis
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 16, 2020, 10:25:09 am
johnar Wow! Your 2 mouth-shape speech is really amazing. It will really help for larger groups of minor characters, etc. You won't need to make manyh shapes for each character, etc. I suspect that it would start to break down for slow speech, but it's so much easier that I'd always start with fewer rather than more morphs, then see if it needed improving.

Nice demo.
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 16, 2020, 09:56:13 pm
Thanks steve. yes, all mouth open and mouth closed, except 'F' was used 4 times, ('if', 'give', 'of' and advice and 'S' once, in 'advice'.

Quote
I suspect that it would start to break down for slow speech

 True. but also, I'm finding that, easily, the most used phonemes are mouth open, mouth closed, F, E, and O, and probably 'S'. ( S = 'E' with teeth)
 I'm pretty confident that those 6 mouth shapes, in conjunction with graph editor, are enough to cover pretty well any speech.  (https://i.postimg.cc/6QhpTB37/Smile-Blnkwhite.gif)
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: Steve on July 16, 2020, 10:13:07 pm
ianross I forgot to reply to you post. Nice pointer to Alter Ego. It's a great, FREE tool and will work well with Anim8or. Somebody or bodies with digital sound experience has really made a contribution!
Title: Re: Lip Sync Tool
Post by: johnar on July 18, 2020, 05:20:10 am
 I've also realised i should have responded to your post, and i'm definately quite keen to check that out. I've actually just downloaded the program, and am about to download the .pdf users guide. (nudge nudge to davdud101 (https://i.postimg.cc/NFQscSY6/Winkwhite.gif))

 Thanks for the heads up ianross this might be just what the band needs, a voice..(https://i.postimg.cc/6QhpTB37/Smile-Blnkwhite.gif)