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[3Dgeek11]

Hmm, I think this time of year calls for something a little nicer..
A Christmas themed challenge, of course!

[headwax]

hi guys greetings seasons et al

now would you lik a suggestion?

lots of people have started in anim8or over the years and, using anim8or as a base, have launched themselves into other programs, both commercial and free.

Hell some of them even use blender
Some use Carrara. Wings etc.
And some of these people even still model with anim8or.
Anim8or is a wonderful modeller. My personal feeling is that that's where it's strength lies. Simplicity, intelligent design and a great small easy to use set of tools.

But anim8or is maybe not the best renderer around. It's slow,  hard to use, slow and hard to use.
Trouble is, with these challenges, by making them anim8or render based as well as anim8or modelling based, you are cutting out a lot of people who might be otherwise tempted to participate.
In some ways you are catering to the new user - which is great - but new users aren't really going to produce the goods that will 1) make people want to use anim8or 2) make people want to show off their work here.

So after that long winded stuff my short sugestion is:

Make challenges anim8or modeller based, but allow people to use the renderer of their choice to show off their models.

The advantages are :1) potentially increasing the number of people participating in these challenges. 2) Work presented will be more professional. 3( this in turn will show off anim8or to advantage and hopefully 4) encourage more people to hone their skills.

Put another way : What is there to lose?

Anim8or is a tool in your tool set. It's a great tool, but just remember, a carpenter doesn't just use a saw to build a house - and in the same way there are dedicated UV mappers, dedicated rendereres, and dedicated modellers.

362 sleeps to go

[davdud101]

Wow, mr. headwax, sir, you just made a fact. Nah, you have many, many good points there. But I don't really understand on part... if Anim8or is a tool in a set of tools, do those tools include things such as texture creation and UV mapping software, or using Anim8or in conjunction with Blender or Carrara?

[headwax]

gooday davdud101

Well my observation is that not many enteries in the challenges, and that the challenges are few and far between.
What could bring people back to the forum I asked? In the old days when there was anim8or.org it was a thriving community. Now not so thriving. Where thriving is busy with lots of great stuff coming out.

I use carara, uvmapper pro (thanks Raxx ) Blacksmith paint, blacksmith morph, Stitchwitch, occasionally poser 8, photshop elements, painter 1x blah blah blah etc

..... and anim8or.

Each tool has it's place.

So in answer to your thought full question.... anim8or as the modeller, your choice of weapon afterwards.
After all, it'as all about honing our skills to make a better finished product.
In the world of 3d, as in all art, the appearance of the finished product is more important than the process to the audience.

Of course the process is just as important to the acolytes


Art is about appearence (and whether you can talk the buyer into parting with another 120 grand)

[ENSONIQ5]

I agree Headwax, and here's why:

1) As you say, the Anim8or community has been getting steadily quieter, possibly as a result of there being no upgrades to Anim8or for a couple of years now.  If opening up the rules would encourage more input and greater activity then that can only be of benefit to the community as a whole;

2) Since it is perhaps reasonable to assume that there will be no more upgrades to Anim8or, perhaps it is also reasonable to think of Anim8or as less a fully-functioning, concept-to-finished-product package, and more a step in the process, as Headwax suggests (I do hope I am wrong about this btw, it would be a pity if Anim8or were never to reach V1);

3) Any rules on what is, and what is not allowable in challenges etc should be consistent and logical.  Anim8or's built-in UV control is a bit simplistic, as a result it has always been allowable to use external, 3rd party UV mapping software when texturing objects, so why should it be any different with the renderer or any other function?

My personal opinion is that challenges could perhaps come in two types:

1) Open - Any software can be used in the production of the image/animation, so long as Anim8or is one of them.  Further, all software used, and what part they played, should be declared on submission of the piece.  This will serve to 'spread the word' to the community about what other software is out there which can help them with their chosen form of artistic expression, and after all, that's what it is all about, yes?  It will also serve to spread the Anim8or word to the greater 3D community, since submissions could also be shown in forums specific to the other software used in the production, with the comment "Modelled in Anim8or" in the credits, for example.

2) Restricted - Only Anim8or can be used to generate the final image/animation.  Whether or not any other software can be used in pre- or post-production, such as texture processing, UV mapping, rendered image layer compositing etc. is open to debate.  Perhaps these could be banned in some challenges, where the challenge is specifically designed to showcase or develop a particular technique or function (eg. edgelooping).

Anyway, it is food for thought.  At very least I would put forth the suggestion of setting an 'Open' category challenge as an experiment, to see how it pans out.  I would also suggest that more time is needed, as unfinished entries tend to outnumber actual submissions, and what has worked quite well in challenges on Animanon was a monthly cycle.  This is particularly true for animation challenges, but also applies to challenges where a 'beauty image' is required rather than a demonstration of understanding a particular technique.  Anyhoo, it's food for thought, and thanks to the Anim8or admin team for continuing to keep the site active and providing a place for suggestions like these to be aired.

[headwax]

Hey Ensoniq5

Thanks for that intelligent an well considered  response.
If I was more intelligent and articulate it would have been exactly what I would have said !

I hope there is some sitting up and listening. I know this is the Anim8or Forum but I think it's a great idea to see anim8or as a tool in the kit, rather than as the entire kit itself.

Anyways, time to sit back and see what  develops.

Oh version 1 anim8or? Yes I'm looking forward to that myself. Only time will tell what goodies Steve might have for us eh?

cheers from sunny Newcastle !

edit: edited to stay on topic, sorry

[blazecon0]

you know what would be realy awesome as far as input goes? plugins!!
me and a friend are working on a project atm, he is doing the textures and im the modeler/animator. ive noticed that he has his own personal tool that he uses to draw, but most notable is a wireless pad and pen that work like a mouse! i use my 360 remote for a LOT of things on my pc, and i think it would be awesome to use a joystick with anim8or
or at least let me set my own hotkeys...

[3Dgeek11]

Those are some really nice thoughts, guys. I hope they can be implemented into the next challenge and we'll see how it goes.

I do hope so much that Anim8or reaches 1.0 one day. I have never found a program as easy to learn as Anim8or and I don't use any other modelers.

I am also in favor of longer challenges. Some can be shorter, but most should be a month or so.

[Raxx]

Originally when I tossed up the idea of Challenges to Steve and the other moderators, the challenges were going to be extremely Anim8or oriented to allow users to learn or relearn certain tools as part of the challenges. For example, one challenge's main criteria would have been to require only the use of splines to make an object. Or to allow only the ART engine, or only box modeling, or only morphs. Tips or info on these specific techniques were to be added to the challenge information. Anyway, the point was to use the challenges as a learning tool for Anim8or.

But that was almost 2 years ago and there hasn't been any development with Anim8or or the community since then. Older users hang around more out of loyalty than need, and newer users are discouraged by the lack of updates or forum activity. A program that isn't going anywhere kind of deters the need for users to learn new things about it.

I've always felt that part of the meaning behind challenges were to overcome Anim8or's flaws. Such as the renderer, animation tools, etc. That's the main reason why I've kept the recent challenges "restricted" to Anim8or when it came my turn to put one up. But what's the point in volunteering in a challenge if it's not fun?

So personally I will keep the challenges more "open" when my turn comes around, and try to avoid forcing the users to have to use the more annoying aspects of Anim8or. I'll toss a note about this in the moderator's board so hopefully the others agree (don't see why they wouldn't).

[hihosilver]

I agree!  Open challenges would be better, and then you may even see me participating at some point if I ever get free time

[Gyperboloid]

Hm, in that way it's almost sure that the only program people won't use for their entries, would be Anim8or and the challenge's topic would be just another one of that billions already existing all over the Internet   

[ENSONIQ5]

Thanks for being open to the idea guys (and thanks Headwax for initiating it).  I actually like the original challenge concept too, where specific techniques are 'work shopped', since this will be of great benefit to new Anim8ors (and older ones who have developed favorite techniques and never learned the full gamut of Anim8or's tools!).

Gyperboloid: I would expect one of the rules to be that Anim8or must be used in construction of the entry, and that all software used (and what they were used for) must be disclosed.  Eg, modelled in Anim8or, UV mapped in UV Unmapper, rendered with Kerkythea, composited with Gimp.  The topics chosen would also need to remain suitable to the pure Anim8or, for those members who use this software exclusively.  I am sure the contest admins will continue to post creative and challenging themes, irrespective of the proposed Open category.  The suggestion is to try the concept and see how it goes really, rather than suggesting a permanent and overriding change to how the challenges are run.

[headwax]

thanks Raxx and Hiho, and Ensoniq5 and 3dgeek11
It will be interesting to see what eventuates!

With the next one it's probably worth sending emails/pms to those people who have shown interest by contributing in the past and who may presently not check the forum very often.

Gyperboloid - interesting point. Challenges have always been about honing our own skills. And about honesty. If anim8or is listed as eg the modeller that must be used, I trust that people will use it. If they don't, well the only person they are kidding at the end of the  day is themselves.

[davdud101]

Two words: Giant Robots.

[Tof]

Three letters: YES!!!!