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Author Topic: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?  (Read 5452 times)

Old Codger

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Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:08:49 pm »

Hello. It's the world's oldest 5-year-old again. I would really like to be able to make some polys/faces to "panel over" some hollow places in a model I am trying to build. If it ends up being up to snuff a buddy of mine is going to use it in his online web comic "The Gentle Wolf" (shameless plug).

(I have no idea how to inline graphics so I'll just describe what I' presenting to you.)
Shape 1 is (hopefully someday) going to grow up (via copying and pasting meshes) into an inflatable portable building. The rounded parts are where it will be "inflated" with the flat parts the panels between. I think it is kinda cute.

Shape 2 is the same mesh after doing a "shell" operation to give it some thickness and generate inward facing faces. All well and good but I'd like to "panel over" the curved parts (currently quite hollow) and figured on using "add edge" command followed by the "fill holes" command to generate a new face between the 4 edges.

Edges sel is the two new faces added and the 4 faces selected using the right mouse button. Now my understanding of the way the "fill holes" command works is that I select 3 or more edges and either use the edit menu command or a simple "shift" + "J" to generate a new face. Unfortunately I tried that and no joy.

Obviously I am screwing up somewhere. Any ideas where? The plan is to panel over the hollow spots, copy the mesh multiple times, join meshes and merge points. But I really do need to have the interior of the hollow areas paneled over since one version of the buildings are going to be open bay work areas and will need to appear solid.

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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2020, 01:37:07 pm »

BTW, Here is a rough approximation of what I want the finished "structure" to look like. The U.S. armed forces (and doubtless the armed forces of other nations) use portable buildings along these lines right now.

Now I know I would construct a 2nd cylinder the same diameter as the "flat panels" and marry the two meshes. But that way is just so inelegant. And Anim8or itself is so elegant (from an engineering perspective) that doing something so "kludgy" with it sorta offends my sensibilities.

Interior shots will be from "sets" made from the basic exterior model. At least that's how I understand the whole 3D rendering/CGI thing to work. Buildings have exterior models with something similar to sets on a movie/TV sound stage providing interior views. I'm just lazy enough to want to be able to use part of the exterior model for the interior sets.

Ideas?
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RudySchneider

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 02:16:04 pm »

Old Codger ---
Looks something like a quonset hut.

OK, first off, remember that you're trying to create a 3D structure.  The basic structure you've created has no thickness yet (which you're trying to do, but...).  Check out page 58 of the manual.  It  may give you some insight to why you're unable to create a closing face.

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RudySchneider

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2020, 12:38:24 am »

Old Codger ---
As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  In this case, I'd start with a cylinder, inset the ends, bridge the ends, "scale" the outer rings to create the "inflated portion, copy and join solids, adding edges and closing faces as needed.

I've attached a step-by-step project file as an example.  It consists of several "objects."  Each successive object is a copy of the previous object, which is then modified as described above.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 12:48:34 am by RudySchneider »
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2020, 11:19:22 am »

Hello, RudySchneider. Let me see if I followed your progression.
1) You made a default cylinder and converted it to a mesh.
2) Next you applied the "inset" command to add new geometry just to the ends.
3) Then you used the "Edit-Bridge" command on the original end caps (Normally I just deselect end caps whenever I make a cylinder but obviously this would not allow me to build geometry only at the ends) which both deleted the unwanted end caps and skinned the interior of the cylinder with very simple (non-subdivided) geometry.

One interesting note: Empirically, I found that the "inset" command can also "inset" a face OUTWARDS!  :o So instead of insetting a door into a frame (thus producing a smaller door), I can use the "inset" tool to frame the face I want to use for my door. In the case of the quonset hut I can produce simple exterior geometry with complex interior geometry. That would allow me to produce the appearance of the interior of an inflatable building by the simple expediency of making a single "ring" and duplicating it multiple times.

Thanks for the example. Just trying to figure out how you did what you did helps me learn so much more. I find it highly informative/useful to crib from somebody who actually KNOWS what they're doing. Unfortunately I often go down several blind alleys before figuring out exactly what I'm doing.  For instance, my first pass at duplicating your work was to use the "Shell" tool. Of course that means I had to delete the end caps (which you clearly had not done) and it also produced complex inner geometry which I did NOT want. Finally I figured out your uber-cryptic "inset the ends" meant actually using the "inset" command. Who knew? ;) Again, many thanks for the help. I actually learned a lot.
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RudySchneider

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2020, 12:55:32 pm »

Don't beat yourself up about going down "blind alleys."  The best way to learn is by trying, failing, trying something else, failing again, trying yet something else again, until you either finally succeed, or you reach out to the forums for guidance.

And to reemphasize that, "if you ain't failing, you ain't tryin'."
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2020, 01:36:13 pm »

Thanks, Rudy. Yeah, I know about going down blind alleys. I figure learning is kinda like walking around in semi-darkness with your hands tied behind you and running into doors. Learning takes place when you figure out how not to run into that particular door. Problem is after a while my nose starts complaining about doing all the work and paying all the price. Ya know? I included the blind alley example to give anybody reading it a chuckle. Just now I'm busting my nose on smoothing and rounding. I "need" a box with rounded edges. So far all I'm getting are either sharp edged boxes with geometry multiplying faster than gerbils (remember, gerbils were on the front row taking notes while rabbits were sitting in the back of the room reading comic books and throwing spit wads.) With a tension = 1 the only effect I have observed is a doubling of the basic geometry without any smoothing. Steven answered my question and I gotta try to digest the Wikipedia entry for "Catmull Clark subdivsion". Sometimes seemingly simple questions can only be answered like when the Creator answered Job, "Where were you when I made the world?" Steven, bless his heart (and I mean that sincerely) gave me a straightforward, honest answer which is gonna take some serious boning up on computer graphics to understand. Fault lies entirely with me. I asked a technical question and Steven gave me an proper answer like the genuine professional he is. Every time I open up a session of Anim8or my respect for Steven grows by leaps and bounds and that is no bravo sierra.
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RudySchneider

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2020, 04:05:50 pm »

As you will no doubt discover for yourself, you get varying results when smoothing.  However, another thing to learn about is the use of edge loops and the "tightening" of edge loops.  For instance here's some examples of smoothing 1x1x1-division and 3x3x3-division cubes.  In the bottom example, I've "tightened" the edge loops, which results in a tighter smoothed edge.  This also helps makes renders appear more realistic, because the rounded edges reflect light.

Oh, one thing I did forget to mention is that smoothing essentially adds more polygons, which in turn makes more work (and takes more time) for the render engine whenever you do decide to render an image.  That's why it's sometimes important to strike a balance between how "real" you want things to look versus how long it takes to get that look.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 04:25:30 pm by RudySchneider »
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2020, 04:47:58 pm »

Sorry but even after searching through the manual for every instance of the phrase "edge loops" I STILL have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. HOWEVER! I WAS able to reproduce your results which is the important thing. I may never understand or speak the proper terminology but I can now do multiple iterations of cut-and-try with different tension settings to see what shakes out. Just looking at the geometry that results from your two passes at tension = 0.1 I can see some possibilities for using the smoothing function to get me into the ballpark then tweak the geometry (I have no problem moving points around) to achieve what I want. What was driving me up the wall was trying to do the smoothing after setting the edges to rounding at various levels per the manual. Perhaps someday it will dawn on me how to employ rounding as an edge property. Then again, maybe not. with me you never know.

Anyhow, thanks for the concrete examples with labels.
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2020, 08:38:08 pm »

Rudy,
I kept playing with rounding the corners. I found that I got better results in my corners and edges (of the model not the actual geometry's edges) by making the little squares that result from moving groups of points around as small as possible. Here is a shot of what will ultimately be a specialized shipping container. No materials yet or textures and I want to experiment with bump maps for some things but I'm kinda proud of my progress - after the HUGE leg up you gave me.

Anyhow, here it is:
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RudySchneider

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2020, 10:42:14 pm »

Well done, Old Codger!  Experimenting pays off!

And as far as Edge Loops are concerned, the Anim8or manual only makes a slight, non-applicable reference to them, but calls them "circles."  But taken literally, it's a closed-loop of edges.  And moving the entire loop is equivalent to your moving multiple points.  In this case, it's moving all of the points on the loop.

Attached is another example of moving edge loops, and the affect it has on either subdividing or smoothing (both under Build) the object.  Note that subdividing gives you a cage, which you can then use to further deform the mesh.
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ENSONIQ5

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2020, 12:59:05 am »

So many cats to be skinned, so many ways to skin them!  Another approach would be to construct the cross section of the semi-cylindrical hut and lathe it around a centre line, then remove the bottom half.  This effectively builds the smooth inside and the ribbed outside of the model in a single operation, already joined.  In the example attached, note that the cross section is built offset from the centre line (green arrow) around which it will be lathed.

I would also recommend building separate interior and exterior 'sets' as the alternative comes with all the same drawbacks as on-location filming.  Thinking like a set builder rather than an engineer can be helpful, for example interior sets can be built in a modular fashion with removable sections to allow cameras to pull back further than they would if they were constrained within a fixed structure.  A real-life example is the filming of Silent Running which was done largely in an aircraft carrier (the Valley Forge) with very restricted spaces.  The camera operators' heads were measured to find the smallest one, so he could jamb himself deeper into corners of rooms behind the camera for the widest possible shot!  Also, the main set for Apollo 13 was very modular with parts that could be removed to poke cameras in.

From bitter experience this is definitely worth thinking about at the modelling stage, not once everything has been assembled and rigged and you can't get the camera where you need it!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:06:30 am by ENSONIQ5 »
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2020, 08:47:26 am »

I'm already thinking exterior models and interior sets. Hadn't thought about lathing. Have to mess with that. And the offset from centerline is the radius of the lathe action. Hmmm. Food for thought. AND for good old empirical exploration. I downloaded both your example pix for further study. I'm trying to get the guy for whom I'm doing all this to decide what he really wants and needs. What microscopic measure of creativity I possess is not visually oriented. I keep trying to tell him that I just figure out how to implement whatever HE comes up with. He has an interesting little web comic I follow called "The Gentle Wolf". You can find it at: https://thegentlewolf.net/

Oh, and I'll have you know that set designers/builders are very much engineers and architects. A visual artist (like my buddy at TGW) dreams up the cool looking things then hands the drawings to engineer types to make the artist's vision real. If you think of it, 3D modelling is very much akin to what prop and set shops do. Almost nothing you see on a movie or television screen is "real". It looks real but it is almost always only skin deep. The trick is to fool the eye into believing that the object - building or prop - is what the story calls. Back in High School I got a teeny bit involved in the Drama dept and helped build sets. I know that the things aren't real. Heck! With CGI not even the furniture is real. It's just shapes that appear solid.

Oh and I figured that what the book calls "edge loops" are what I am working with when I do a drag mark over a chunk of a model to move it or scale it like when I turn a nice 3x3x3 cube with edges that look like a tic-tac-toe board into a thing with little squares in the corners. Never knew they had a name even though I've been manipulating them since almost day one.
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ENSONIQ5

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2020, 07:58:52 pm »

I'm not saying set builders aren't engineers, just that they have different goals.  An engineer builds something that works, a set builder builds something that looks like it works but is filmable.

Take, for example, a train carriage.  A 3D CGI model builder who is into trains might start by building the wheels and bogeys, then the chassis, the wall frames, the exterior cladding, the windows, the interior panels, light fittings, seats, etc.  It might be a faithful model of a train carriage that satisfies the builder and might work very well for exterior shots, but it probably wouldn't be practical to use as a set for movie scenes taking place inside the carriage.  A set builder's approach would be to ignore the undercarriage entirely and build each wall and the ceiling as separate objects (or object groups with light fittings, windows etc.) that can be hidden at will to allow cameras to be positioned in different locations in an unrestricted way.

Building a real train carriage that way would be insane, so a train enthusiast hired to build a filmable movie set of a train carriage might have a hard time forcing themselves to ignore what they know about how real train carriages are built, and build something that's totally wrong but looks right :)

From personal experience it's helps A LOT if the director/writer/whoever you're working for can provide storyboards, or at least some visual idea of the 'shots' required.  This will inform how the models should be built and whether any sort of modularity is required.  I can also recommend a 'pre-vis' stage, where simple block-form models are used as stand-ins of the real, detailed models, with only basic lighting and texturing but with the cameras in position.  This can help to determine how a camera should track through animated scenes and allows the director to request adjustments that don't result in many more hours work for you.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 08:10:18 pm by ENSONIQ5 »
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Old Codger

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Re: Why Can't I Generate A New Poly/Face?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2020, 08:29:01 pm »

I understand where you're coming from. That's why I am a touch irritated with the guy for whom I am ramping up in Anim8or. He's wanting stuff that won't move the story along and which he'll probably never use. I'm pitching two different types of models. Exterior pieces (which would need wheels and other things but not much in the way of interior) and interior sets (which would look like they were inside the exterior models but which would not actually be part of the exterior). Part of the problem we're having is getting him to test the rough models for scale and send me at least a screen shot of the result. I don't know what format works best (.3ds or .obj) and what scaling factor - 1 to 1 or 12 to 1. Frankly, at this point in time I am having enough trouble learning how to make what I want/need in Anim8or without having also to learn Daz Studio just to try the models out for scale. Down the road I'm going to have to learn Daz Studio so I can just ship him finished, "camera ready" models. But for now Anim8or is as much as (more really) I can handle. My health isn't good. Some days all I do is get up, make a little breakfast, read a couple of web comics and blogs and go back to bed. Yesterday I crashed at around 3:00p.m. and didn't get back up till 7:00. Then I ate a quick sandwich, took my night meds and crashed until this morning. I'm making progress and I try to devote 2 hours minimum to learning Anim8or but it's an uphill slog.
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