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Messages - johnar

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Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: Today at 08:24:12 am »
1. Copying only a zero key doesn't really mean anything. Ignore it when this happens.
2. Copying only one non-zero key is pasted as a one frame phoneme, with a default 2 frame lead and 2 frame tail if those aren't also selected.
3. Copying all or parts of multiple keys treats each key independently according to these rules.

I realize that this is a bit confusing but I haven't been able to come up with a better solution. Any ideas?

Yes i think i see the problem, as explained in number 3.

 Keeping in mind that a copied non-zero key is pasted with a default lead and tail key, then it makes sense that this scenario will always cause issues if overlapping occurs.
 The problem has potential to become 'overwhelmingly confusing' when "Copying all or parts of multiple keys"
Two possible solutions.
1) So far, the easiest solution i can see to this is to not allow overlapping.

 Then, how would this work, when applied to "Copying all or parts of multiple keys"
 If existing keys are 'deleted if overlapped', including any 0 keys, would that then 'clear the way' for the 'non-zero and its default lead and tail keys'?

  Keep in mind that, in my experience at least, when animating lipsync manually, the chances of ever 'needing' to 'overlap the same phoneme key' in the timetrack is .........never (?)........

 As mentioned earlier, a warning to the user that 'keys will overlap and affected existing keys will be deleted', would work.

 So, to clarify, one possible solution that i can see at this point, is to:
 'Not allow overlapping, and if overlapping is going to occur, delete any existing keys from the timetrack that will be overlapped'

 Would that work?

 Possible solution 2} If copying a 'block' of phoneme keys, to repeat further along the timetrack, causes problems when 'pasting'  due to phoneme key 'rules' then would it be possible to somehow change those phoneme keys to ordinary keys, as is done when overlapping/adding keys into a sequence, in scene mode? Then the keys to copy would just be ordinary keys, and the phoneme key rules would not apply

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: Yesterday at 10:46:00 pm »
 Am thinking of options re copying phoneme keys. Will get back to you on that in a day.

 re scrubbing....awesome.
 re stuttering, I tried to upload a zip with a video in it of play option stuff in magpie pro just for interest and comparrison sake. Unfortunately too large for attachment so have emailed it to you.

EDIT: Sorry i got rushed there steve. After checking the video, the sound is pretty bad,
 I shouldve made it a bit shorter to cut down on size and audio quality.
  Although the sound quality is bad, i just wanted to give you an example of what it sounds like frame by frame in other audio/lip sync software, as maybe a sort of comparrison thing.
 It does sound sort've 'stuttery' anyway, being the nature of 1 frame of sound.
 But thats probably not the 'stuttering' you were meaning anyway.

 Hi there Michel.

 Could you please make that copy with english subtitles, when you get the time.
 Would really like to watch the full 1st episode, but, eu nao entendo portugues.

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: July 05, 2020, 07:00:41 pm »

 Cool robot.
 The jump looks awesome, but the landing needs to be a more obvious 'landing'. ( a 'timing and weight' thing) 

 Actually, of course, i could be wrong.
 It would depend on the gravity...   ;)

 Cool robot  :)

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: July 05, 2020, 01:16:39 am »
I'm also thinking about allowing the phonemes to be modified directly in the phoneme track. It takes a bit of experimenting to see what works smoothly.

 Seems to me that phonemes can already be edited directly in the P.track editor, and along with the graph editor, thats pretty well taken care of. (for me anyway). So that's interesting

Then there are issues with overlapping lead/tails of two adjacent instances of the same phoneme. Currently I simply add all the keys which can result in strange behavior. I haven't figured out a good way to handle this yet.

I'm trying to think of an occasion where i've ever needed to overlap the same phoneme keys, of the same name, in the timetrack.
  Very rarely.
 Perhaps a warning, like you get when adding keys to a sequence in Scene mode.?
 "you are about to overlap an existing phoneme of the same name, which will delete (the value) of the already existing phoneme key" 
 Or maybe, rather than delete the existing key, the new one is added to the nearest frame possible after the existing one(s); (with a warning and OK/Cancel option)

I'm now trying making sound clip files on the fly and hope that's responsive enough.

 wow, that sounds really interesting.

Zooming + multiple tracks are also possibilities - but I first have a lot of learning to do on converting sampling rates and filtering or everything will be limited to a single sampling rate for each scene :'( (like sound output to AVI's is now limited)

May the force be with you steve.

 Personally, "being limited to a single sampling rate for each scene" isn't the end of the world. Its a small ask that the user limit .wav files to the same sampling rate per scene. (44.1kHz being standard)
 just my personal opinion tho.
 On the other hand, i can see how it could be important to handle different sampling rates

 Just know that, so far, everything 'Anim8or re lipsync' is coming along just dandy. Having lipsync abilities in Anim8or is already a thing of beauty.
Nice one steve

 Yes, thanks ttsnim

 I found 2 copies on ebay, and bought one

edit: $12nzd. for a second hand copy in good condition. Cheap!
 They did have another one which was an updated version, about $19usd.

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: July 03, 2020, 05:12:16 am »
Hi again steve.
 I'm not finding any problems here, except for that keys not deleting thing.
(thanks for the coming fix)

One thing i should mention.
 A tip for anyone using the phoneme track, which is probably best as a 'rule' for editing phoneme keys. (Unless this is something that you decide is worth fixing. But it's not broken, so this 'rule/tip' is probably all thats really needed)
 I'll try to explain.
 I set a phoneme key and have the 'fade' period set to (eg) 4. Later, when 'fine tuning/tweaking the keys. that key needs to be moved to (eg) 5. (or 6 or 2 or whatever).

 The rule would be, "when editing phoneme keys, changing the length, lead, or fade value should be done within the phoneme key editor".
 Initially, i wanted to extend the fade key value from 4 to 6. or 'move that key 2 frames further along the track. So i just Ctrl-X that key, and paste it 2 frames further along the time track.
 It works, of course, but you lose the blue color from the key. After a bit of similar editing, the time track is left with an 'apparently' random smattering of blue keys, Which sort've defeats the purpose of coloring the phoneme keys in the first place.
 Maybe not necessarily a rule, but at least a tip.
 (unless you think its worth looking into)

 Apart from that, i think what we've got right now is absolutely cool, functional and practical. Capable of far better results than can be expected from any 'automatic lip-sync app or function'.
 Having this 'hands on' ability to set the keys 'placement and values' easilly and at the first instance, also makes things a whole lot easier when fine tuning later on.
 I have experimented with 'automatic lip-sync software and I'm totally confident that anim8or has the beginning of something far superior than anything i've seen.
 I say 'the begining of something', because, as we know, the hardest part of lipsyncing is putting the phoneme in the right frame at the right time.
 Scrubbing is probably what most people look for, and then some kind of 'zooming in' or 'magnifying', to have a closer look at where we think the sound is actually made.
 As we are now, we can select an area of the waveform and play it. That actually does work quite well and, with practice, the timing can be set very closely, if not spot on. (some waveforms are easier to read than some others).

 I've mentioned 'arrowkey scrubbing' If scrubbing is used for finetuning of phoneme placement, then i would say that 'arrow key scrubbing' is for even finer tuning. (more exact placing). If you can advance 1, or 2, frames at a time, with sound 'on', then synchronizing can be 'exact', and you can't get any closer than that. 

 Think i've done my rave for now.
 Great job steve.
 Cuppa tea

EDIT sorry for my, often, long winded, roundabout way of saying things sometimes.
 I realise now that perhaps what i could have said was 'Is there any way the phoneme keys can retain their color after being cut/copied and pasted'?

Unfortunately I have discovered the loops are all wrong for expressions and will have to start from scratch!
Next head should be even better.

 Congratulatons. A really good move, taking the time now, to construct the topology in line with decent facial expression.
 Not like me, wishing i'd done the same, a long time ago.
 One of my characters especially, i just hate using the 'O' phoneme, coz it looks so bad. Doesn't matter how much i try to improve the morph, there just isn't the right points in the right places, to get it looking decent.
 You're inspiring me to start another character.
 Good stuff,  ttsnim, looking good.

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: June 30, 2020, 09:20:32 am »
Hi steve.
 Just a quick note to let you know i've downloaded 1385 and have only had time for a quick look so far. I'll have some more feedback within the next couple of days, but for now, all i can really say is ---FAN TASTIC----
 A great variety of options now in the Phoneme Editor, have tried just a few different mixtures of settings, and so far all is looking really good.
 A great amount of control for setting initial phoneme keys. Gotta say that's quite outstanding. Something quite special. Well done.
 Sorry i don't have time for a closer look right now, but can't wait to take it for a longer spin. Exciting stuff steve, looking really, really good.

 One thing.
 When deleting a phoneme key, the first and last/outside keys aren't deleting.
 (the '0' keys).
 When you save the file, close it and re-open it, then the outside keys have gone.
modified key values are saved

 Gotta go for now.
 Magic stuff steve

Finished Works and Works in Progress / Re: off road car cube modeling
« on: June 28, 2020, 04:52:39 am »
Nice ideas olan,
 There are tricks to getting wheels to turn smoothly and continuously.
 1 thing i found helpfull was to get a few turns happening in sequence mode. Once you've got that sequence sorted, just keep adding/joining the same sequence in scene mode.
 If you add sound, a slight rocking motion in time with 'reving' can help realism.
 How about some animated window wipers?   

 Edit: maybe some headlights/brakelights that turn on and off, an arial that goes up and down, and bends in the wind, and opening doors and bonnet. (sorry, thinking out loud)

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: June 21, 2020, 11:49:51 pm »
ianross Hi.
 I use They're really good.
 just copy the 'direct link' they give you, paste here, select, and then click the little 'insert image'  button, below the 'B', above the 'reply to topic' box.

It puts  [/img]   at the end of the link  and  [img]    at the begining. 
 I  noticed your first '[' was missing in your example above.
 and yes, the link provided by postimage has  a file extension.  (.jpg)

Ongoing Anim8or Development / Re: Lip Sync Tool
« on: June 20, 2020, 12:59:32 am »
Is this the same Papagayo first posted here by nero, maybe 4-5 years ago? (possibly more like 10 years ago)

( I have a feeling he may have done the original programming.............(?))

ianross i notice on your image coding example that you're also missing the '[' at the beginning of ' img][/img]

Finished Works and Works in Progress / Re: lipsync and animation 2
« on: June 18, 2020, 08:36:11 am »
 Long time no see.
 Yes, don't know where i'd be without the good old pen and paper.
 Thanks for the post. Hope all is going well in your 'digital endeavours'
 (havn't seen anything from you in a while. )

 I'll do something with the 'top teeth' setup before/for the next one.

Doya like the glasses?

Finished Works and Works in Progress / Re: lipsync and animation 2
« on: June 15, 2020, 09:07:51 pm »
Thank you steve. Thank you heaps. That means a lot to me.

if i might offer a spot of constructive criticism

 Yes Please!!
  Well spotted with the top teeth. I thought i was getting away with that.
 A while back, his top teeth were annoying me in some particular mouth shapes, ('FFF' was the main one) so i added a morph target to lift or lower them, just to tweak things when polishing in scene mode. I did the same with the bottom teeth, you can see the morphs in the left side of the pic of the time track. ('topteethup' and 'bottomteethup' ) ('down' is just a negative value of up.)

 But now that you've pulled me up on those top teeth, you're absolutely right, and 'hopefully' you'll notice, in the future, that i've taken your advice on board.


dode1 keep at it with those morph targets. Once you get comfortable with them, it's amazing the 'scope' of what can be done with them.

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